A tale of two spins

[dirtdart]

Viper you are a turdburgler.......  I apologize. 

Now we are past that comment; you may not have realized that the BBs are full of cannon armed flameblasters who live for nothing more than to disprove or contradict what someone decides to post.  Likely folks throw there experience out there because it implies that they are speaking from a stronger position than book smarts or a motion picture starring Tom Cruise.  (this fits, the F-14 was in a spin)  They do this to hopefully limit the amount of flak they take when they make a statement.  So when a guy says...."I am a flight instructor" it means that he may have some actual knowledge on the subject.  Now granted there are those who lie on the BBs, but I reckon within a few years or posts, those liars are distilled into the vial of shame.  Traveler is not in said vial. 

I like the path you are on though, keep plowing guys on the boards for no good reason, it will certainly endear you to others and make any post of yours worth reading for all of the RIGHT reasons. 

[wil3ur]

<---has Top Gun the picture book sitting next to his desk for quick reference in all matters flight related.  I'm glad my mom new when I was 8 years old that I'd need this wealth of knowlege to perform at may peak with cartoon airplanes.

[Traveler]

Please correct my understanding on the dynamics of this...
1) What makes a single engine plane spin at stall is the torque of the engine, correct?
2) Thus a plane with counter rotating props, a power on stall should have no spin, correct?
3) Thus, a plane should only spin to the left or to the right as a result of control surface changes, correct?

What other forces have a significant impact on the spin of the aircraft at stall (torque, propwash, control surface deflection, and...)?
At what speed does the rudder loose its authority?

1) incorrect.  Gliders Stall and spin with no help from engine torque.  Remember a wing can be put into a stalled condition at any airspeed.  Dynamic  stalles are a good example.

2)  incorrect,.  again Gliders Stall and spin with no engine.

3)Correct.  if you stall just one wing and the other continues to generate lift, the aircraft rolls,

A "stall" occurs as a result of one of two events:

1. The wings can not support the load of the weight being carried.
2. The horizontal tail can not provide the pitching authority needed to support the wing loading (tail stall)
3. 1 and 2 have to do with an aircraft that has exceeded its critical angle of attack.

[Changeup]

Obviously, you did not bother to read where I posted an apology to Traveler, Baldy.  
or where I offered to try and recreate his tests to film and post to either back up his claim or possibly show recovery while spinning to the right

but that is ok


Viper

It would be very hard to read your "apology" and take it with any seriousness...but that was the idea right?  Do you always drizzle a bit of sarcasm with your apologies?  That, of course, makes it so much easier to believe. lol

Changeup

[Reaper90]

It would be very hard to read your "apology" and take it with any seriousness...but that was the idea right?  Do you always drizzle a bit of sarcasm with your apologies?  That, of course, makes it so much easier to believe. lol

Changeup

we do not need egomaniacs in our squad, Sir

 

 

[Traveler]

ok, just made a film testing P-38L  75% fuel loadout 2 1K bombs and 10 rkts


power off stall at 5,000 ft   gear up / no flaps used    (I did use flaps on 1 of the spins, I let the spin really spin 3 rotations before trying to recover, and got really close to ground so used flaps to keep from pancaking)

cut throttle, full stick backpressure full righ t rudder to induce spin

to recover - full stick forward , full left rudder to counter spin, spin stops increase throtttle to pull out

did it several times

did the spin to the left several times as well.  I had no problems.  I did not have to use an small amount of throttle on right engine only.

are you using combat trim?    I was using manual trim , trimmed out to level flight speed of 300 mph ias


I need to find place to host this film

Viper

Where you able to post the film?   Many people use Media Fire , it's free and simple to use?  No combat trim is off at the point where I perform the test.

[Citabria]

not regarding the p38 specifically but in general ah does the stalled and sub stall speed flight modelling better than the rest but it is after all still a model and it always will have limitations in its depiction of what it models based on the code in place.


ive got about 20 hrs now of North American T-6 SNJ/Texan time and flown it throughout its envelope about every time I go up.

there is a sweet spot on big heavy low wing airplanes like this when your doing stalls or max performance turns riding a stall.

thing about it is if you stay dead on the rudder and coordinated it could almost be called docile if you take it to a stall level or in a turn. but get it in a slip or a skid and stall it out and your knife edge with a wing dropped in a split second.

then theres flight beyond the stall. hammerheads and fun stuff like that are much more graceful in my experience in planes like the texan. there really is nothing about the way it flies I don't enjoy. and the commonly held view that the mustangs and single seat warbirds do fly much like the texan makes it all the better.

anyways. ah stall/sub stall modelling is good and most likely the best in the industry but it can always be improved upon.

[VIPER]

Where you able to post the film?   Many people use Media Fire , it's free and simple to use?  No combat trim is off at the point where I perform the test.

Yes Sir, I used your suggestion and made a mediafire account.

P38L Poweroff Stall induced Left Spin Test
http://www.mediafire.com/?3a3o4d4bvtnnzhj

P38L Poweroff Stall induced Right Spin Test
http://www.mediafire.com/?sbkzvimh6naufx4

I noticed that the artificial horizongyroscope doess not work in the film viewer
I noticed that flaps and ailerons show movement in film viewer but the rudder shows no movement , neither does the flight yoke  for the P38L

I noticed that in your films you let the spin go 3 to 5 or moe revolutions, or it is hard to tell because the rudder shows no movement in external view but you might be already trying to counter wih rudder but to no avail
I only let my spins go 1 to 2 revolutions. on one of the spins I let it go to 3 or 4 revolutions

but I was able to recover from all spins.  I did bring throttle in on 1 or 2 of the spins right as I was coming out of the spin but it looks like the film has a delayed reaction verses what it looks like when actually flying online or offline

let me know or tell me if I did anything wrong in doing these, please

[VIPER]

Viper you are a turdburgler.......  I apologize. 
 

apology accepted 

I have not plowed any person outside of commenting to Traveler about posting his credentials, and in hindsite I saw where he was coming from and fully understand why he would take the time to post such info, just like you pointed out
I offered an apology to Traveler and with my sorry typing abilitys it might not have been understood correctly from how I ran everything together
I have made an honest effort of trying to see and figure out what Traveler (and others possibly) are experiencing with spins to the right in the P38L

good day, Sir!

[Traveler]

Interestingly I did a second series of tests with the P38L same load out as before and in the spin to the right if I applied power on the right engine the rotation to the right was stopped and recovery was possible.  Normal recovery from a spin in either direction should be possible in the P38, it appears as though it is not possible with in the game.  I know that AH prides itself on the mechanics of the flight model and was wondering if someone from AH might care to comment on what appears to be a problem with that model.

[ozrocker]

Weird, if you are in spin to right, power off stall.
You apply right engine power to stop right spin stall?
Seems like left engine power would counter right spin.

                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                       Oz      

[Traveler]

Yes Sir, I used your suggestion and made a mediafire account.

P38L Poweroff Stall induced Left Spin Test
http://www.mediafire.com/?3a3o4d4bvtnnzhj

P38L Poweroff Stall induced Right Spin Test
http://www.mediafire.com/?sbkzvimh6naufx4

I noticed that the artificial horizongyroscope doess not work in the film viewer
I noticed that flaps and ailerons show movement in film viewer but the rudder shows no movement , neither does the flight yoke  for the P38L

I noticed that in your films you let the spin go 3 to 5 or moe revolutions, or it is hard to tell because the rudder shows no movement in external view but you might be already trying to counter wih rudder but to no avail
I only let my spins go 1 to 2 revolutions. on one of the spins I let it go to 3 or 4 revolutions

but I was able to recover from all spins.  I did bring throttle in on 1 or 2 of the spins right as I was coming out of the spin but it looks like the film has a delayed reaction verses what it looks like when actually flying online or offline

let me know or tell me if I did anything wrong in doing these, please

I only looked at the spin to the right.   Of the three spins on the film, only the second was actually a stall spin.   It appears in the first spin to the right that you applied right rudder as you say to induce the spin , however, based on what I saw I think you applied the right rudder just before the wing stalled.

The second Stall Spin to the right was executed perfectly and  was well done.  You were only able to stop the rotation by adding power to the right engine. And again my point being you should be able to stop rotation with left ruder alone.

The  third Stall Spin was more of a snap roll to the right and again I feel  the wing was not stalled.  

[Traveler]

Weird, if you are in spin to right, power off stall.
You apply right engine power to stop right spin stall?
Seems like left engine power would counter right spin.

                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                       Oz      

Not really weird, while sitting in the hanger in a P38, start just the right engine.  Shift + 2 and press E.  Now add power to #2, while looking forward, the nose of the aircraft swings to the left.

[colmbo]

Weird, if you are in spin to right, power off stall.
You apply right engine power to stop right spin stall?
Seems like left engine power would counter right spin.

                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                       Oz      

Power from the right engine yaws to the left.  You are spinning to the right -- the nose is moving to the right -- you want to stop that rotation.

[colmbo]

I'm still curious about the stick and elevator movement during the spin.  Why does the stick move forward, elevator go down while controller is held full back?