Author Topic: Argentina is not alone  (Read 2692 times)

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2012, 10:19:26 AM »
http://mises.org/daily/5904/Will-Currency-Devaluation-Fix-the-Eurozone

Penguin, give this a shot. Doesn't answer the question but a great essay with a few observations to consider. I lean Austrian, mostly due to the strong sense of restraint and humility to accept no one can know everything. If you get bored FA Hayek's, "The Road to Serfdom." Schumpter has a great book on 'Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy.'

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline cpxxx

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2012, 10:44:57 AM »
This thread is odd.

Penguin if you're like this at 15. What will you be like at 50. President? Can I invite you to come to Ireland and take over the country. You make more sense than that monkeys we elected last time. Our government has a unique attitude to high unemployment. Higher and higher taxes and encouraging people to emigrate.

Maybe we should copy the Argies and claim the Isle of Man as ours!


Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2012, 05:30:33 PM »
http://mises.org/daily/5904/Will-Currency-Devaluation-Fix-the-Eurozone

Penguin, give this a shot. Doesn't answer the question but a great essay with a few observations to consider. I lean Austrian, mostly due to the strong sense of restraint and humility to accept no one can know everything. If you get bored FA Hayek's, "The Road to Serfdom." Schumpter has a great book on 'Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy.'

Boo

I guessed that you were with Friedman due to the focus on inflation, but now that look at your post again, I can see Hayek's influence.  Doubtless, the market is central to a successful economy; my point was to use the government to prevent financial accelerators from creating depression or speculative bubbles, and then spur (or deflate) both sides of supply and demand if and when they do happen.  For example, if you've got a huge demand-side orange bubble, then raising taxes on oranges will help protect entrepreneurs from staking their fortunes erroneously.  On the other hand, if it isn't a bubble at all, then all you'll end up doing is creating a dead-weight loss that could strangle growth.  This is where Hayek would come in, stating that predicting this is impossible because the market is too vast to regulate effectively.  On the other hand, can it really be said that we cannot make any collective economic decisions?  The labor reform laws of the late 19th and early 20th centuries certainly helped to end exploitation.  So it's not so much a question of kind, but degree.

On the issue of the Euro, the more powerful evidence is less the typical of Keynesian expansionary policy, but the mention that half the proposed expansion has already occurred without a subsequent increase in activity.  However, this devaluation is not the result of an increase in supply (loose monetary policy) but a decrease in demand due to a slowing European economy.  In that sense, the article confuses a decrease in demand with an increase in supply.  However, expanding the money supply is just too broad a fix for too narrow a problem.  The key is not to attempt to influence aggregate demand for European goods by expanding the money supply, but identifying which industries can be abandoned (e.g., complex lending), and which will create new growth (perhaps green energy).  There is also the issue of a supply-side crisis having toasted the European economy, not a downturn in demand, so boosting aggregate demand via expansionary policy would really mess things up  because it would be a misapplication of Keynes' normative theory.  On the other hand, performing a revamp of roads, canals, and other means of infrastructure could spur the lagging industrial development that the article mentioned via improved efficiency, and help to revive the flagging supply-side.

While Hayek had a point about the inefficiencies of long-term command or socialist economies, there is also the fact that we can become aware of things that will influence economic growth by performing careful experiments and examinations.  For instance, taxing anything that moves really doesn't help much due to dead-weight loss, but not taxing enough starves the government of the funds that it needs to do the things that no-one can profit from directly (roads, highways, the military, education, welfare, unemployment, care for the poor) without really fracking up the system.  While some inequality is unavoidable, it is well-known that continued under-regulation and under-taxation will create unimaginable horror for the imperfect competitors that compose the majority of the economy for the benefit of a very narrow few that often squirrel their money away or spend it on charity (which, while noble, isn't as effective as creating new small business to employ the destitute) or extravagant luxuries.

On the other hand, no-one could have predicted Apple or Microsoft in anything but the most general terms.  Steve Jobs have a 2.6 (+-.1) GPA and dropped out of college, by all measures he was     bound for poverty.  However, his entrepreneurship saved his hide and we all got nicer things to boot.  So attempting to manipulate the economy like a marionette will not generate good results, either.  It is vital, however, to avoid the expression of self-interest in ways that hurt us, like exploitative labor or predatory lending.  There's no profit in that, but it's all-important in order to prevent general suffering; therefore, the government must take action to prevent such practices.  A good example would be Ben Bernanke saying that anti-fraud regulation wasn't needed due to market forces; however, not everyone spends much time worrying if their lender is actively trying to screw them, and those that do don't have the resources to effectively detect it.

The real goal, then is to use regulation to create an economy where self-interest and rational choice can only be expressed via competition among companies and entrepreneurs, and not malicious practices or massive swings in economic output (e.g., the Great Depression).  Thereby, consumers and the notion that competition creates more for everyone are protected, and the economy is protected from damage.  To accomplish such goals, it is important to keep inspectors rotating through and give them incentives of prestige to report malicious actions, and prevent the 1% (a necessary part of the economy) from stopping the flow of wealth back to small businesses and entrepreneurs (where it is needed to maintain competition-based growth).  I actually drew up a diagram of that last idea, if you'd like to see it.

-Penguin

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #78 on: February 09, 2012, 06:04:23 PM »
Points made very well. The problem is the centralized nature of the solutions. Can government ever act quick enough to respond to fluxuating food prices to penalize speculative orange growers? And should government? The fact is if an orchard farmer were to shift all of their production to oranges and there is overproduction, that is penalty enough. It will likely wipe them out as they have a massive supply of oranges that they struggle to give away for free. Your answer is that on top of being wiped out by overproduction government supply the coup de grace by taxing whats left and ensure his next effort is to get in line at the soup kitchen.

The grand deceipt of so many theories of economics is not that they are entirely wrong, but that can centrally plan the entire economy. It has been attempted many times and failure is the constant answer.

Ben Bernake is so brilliant at running monetary policy yet he placed his own home on the market about 6 months after the bubble popped. This means that we have entrusted him with so many millions of jobs, paychecks for grocery bills and yet he cannot even get his own home right. The grand deceipt. I worry you insist you can prescibe the economy as well if not better.

The final analysis of Keynesian economics and the ilk is where we are at right now. They insist they can play the economy like a fiddle. If so, then our current state of affairs is intentional. If not, they are beyond arrogant. No matter how many mathematical formulas they produce in then end they are always making excuses for what went wrong.

I would suggest we are no wiser then those that have already failed.
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #79 on: February 09, 2012, 06:57:25 PM »
It is true that mistakes have led to the position we are in right now.  However, what are the other options?  If we let the economy roam wild, then these things will still happen because investors will be committing the hubris.  However, my point is less in line with central planning than neoclassical growth; government intervention should be limited to the short term for a particular field.  For example, wild lending practices should be countered with heavier taxes and regulation on lending for a few years, not decades.  Thereby the market is corrected from a dangerous path, but is allowed to return to business as usual as soon as the craziness passes.  As for the orange farmer, the idea is to catch him before it gets out of hand, and then let him either try to grow at a normal rate or compete for a loan to start over in a new field, which would get him re-employed sooner and keep consumers happy (perhaps someone just discovered a great place to grow potatoes!).  I certainly don't mean to try to play the economy 'like a fiddle,' that's like trying to outguess every investor on the stock exchange forever: Consumer goods would be very scarce or overly abundant.  The idea is to smooth out bubbles and depressions by opening doors via loans (not transfers) and siphoning off the money from periods of irrational exuberance (which can deflate bubbles without as much pain) in order to help the market respond to shocks even more quickly by providing capital, but letting the market decide 'the next big thing'.  There is an institution that does part of it, I believe that it's called the Small Business Grant Administration, or something to that effect. However, once these periods of unrest are over, the market is generally a stable, honest place filled with industrious people trying to make their way in the world.  It's not like these bubbles happen everywhere, all the time.  They happen every few generations or so, but when they do happen, they really destabilize things, and that's where the government can step in to keep the economy moving as a whole.

-Penguin
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 07:02:25 PM by Penguin »

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2012, 08:43:53 AM »
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2012, 06:25:09 PM »
Oddly, that makes me think of Occupy Wall Street.

-Penguin

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #82 on: February 10, 2012, 06:42:02 PM »
Well worded though what you are advocating is a big part of what we are dealing with now. In the small world of economists the Mecca of employment is the Federal Reserve. This is the entity tasked with 'smoothing over the bubbles' since 1913 and have managed to produce little noticeable change. We now call them recessions or depressions, prior to they were called panics. The happen with near the same frequency though hit harder.

The biggest concern I see with smoothing the bumbs, beyond the obvious that the very best have not pulled it off is the moral hazard created. If anything Wall Street has learned risky behaviour will be rewarded. We are now in the vicious cycle of privatizing profit, socializing loss. More of the same...

Larry Summers recently note debt and spending got us into this mess though only more debt and spending will get us out. We've gone from the $250m "Bridge to Nowhere" to "Cash For Clunkers." A dairy farmer with common sense would encourage us to stop digging in that hole we've found ourselves.

If debt worked Bush/Obama would certainly have solved it.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline LCADolby

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #83 on: February 10, 2012, 06:58:31 PM »
*Sniff* ... *Sniff*


So much Bullshi....



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Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2012, 07:05:05 PM »
I'm not advocating sustained deficits and debt.

Loss is inevitably socialized via the loss of major corporations.  One thing that we're doing now is having larger corporations plan their own demises by outlining what to do if they fail catastrophically.  A major part of the bubble was the sustained deregulation of the financial system.  There was no 'playing it like a fiddle' there; we let that sector run its course and it blew up.  Canada, for counter-example, maintained tighter regulation and the banks did not fail as badly.   That's not to say that Canada doesn't have its own problems, but it is very similar to the US in other regards, which rules out the other significant variables.  Clearly, at least in the financial sector, there is a need for tight regulation.

However, like you said, moral hazard is an issue.  This moral hazard is only present if the solution to market failure is propping up failed companies and allowing investors to still collect their money.  On the other hand, if the government had a plan for what to do in the event that large corporations failed, then it could better re-train employees of those corporations to work somewhere else, or prepare them to become entrepreneurs themselves because it wouldn't be so focused on preventing a depression.  Imagine if all those banks had failed and just collapsed; there'd be chaos and no-one would learn anything from it.  It's the difference between amputating a gangrenous limb and just hoping that it falls off, the former is far safer because there is a measure of control, whereas the latter carries the possibility of death by gangrene.  Therefore, having a plan for when the sand hits the fan that doesn't involve propping a corporation up, but rather preventing its fall from damaging anyone but the investors will greatly limit the 'socialized loss' while eliminating 'moral hazard' of the corporation's collapse.  In short, prevention is cheaper then treatment, but not going to the doctor is the most expensive choice of all.

-Penguin

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2012, 10:48:58 PM »
Let's be clear about something. Our current state of affairs is not due to a lack of governmentleading to cowboy capitalism, free markets run amuck. Every step of our current situation is due to government economists making big picture, centralized decisions for the entire economy. The housing bubblewas created by both monetary and fiscal policies with a massive dose of government ensured moral hazard. Now that government economists have created this mess we now need more government economists picking winners and losers to get out of this mess.

Mom and pop did not create this. Lobbyisys, politicians and flunky economists did. This is the single greatest denial of the Keynesian side of the debate. Reality cannot be negotiated.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline wil3ur

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2012, 11:00:28 AM »
This is the entity tasked with 'smoothing over the bubbles' since 1913 and have managed to produce little noticeable change.

Except for the 98% decline in the US Dollars purchasing power, the Looting of American Gold reserves both Public and Private to pay for the debt incurred from borrowing from the Fed, the myriad of taxes and statues we now pay to finance the bankruptcy of this nation to our creditors the Fed, and the reemergence of the Gilded Gentry lording over the population and controlling vast swaths of both the markets and the government using both to stifle competition at the detriment of the consumer, but the enrichment of the few...  Nothing has changed.

For some reason it sounds really funny to call us a "Free Market".

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Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2012, 11:13:01 PM »
Let's be clear about something. Our current state of affairs is not due to a lack of governmentleading to cowboy capitalism, free markets run amuck. Every step of our current situation is due to government economists making big picture, centralized decisions for the entire economy. The housing bubblewas created by both monetary and fiscal policies with a massive dose of government ensured moral hazard. Now that government economists have created this mess we now need more government economists picking winners and losers to get out of this mess.

Mom and pop did not create this. Lobbyisys, politicians and flunky economists did. This is the single greatest denial of the Keynesian side of the debate. Reality cannot be negotiated.

Boo

Yes, there were centralized decisions: To deregulate.  That was the theme of the 90s: Finance unleashed.  The whole idea was to let the markets do their thing and see if the Austrians were right all along.  As we can see, they weren't, much like the Keynesians were wrong in the 70s due to stagflation.  However, Mom and Pop were central to the mortgage crisis that fueled this whole debacle.  It was a regular occurence for people to buy too much house and lie about their income in order to qualify for the mortgage.  That's not to say that there weren't dishonest dealings by bankers, but no-one made anyone take those mortgages.  Mom and Pop were not innocent bystanders to a Keynesian collapse; they were active participants in a speculative bubble that nearly broke the back of the world financial system.

The banks themselves dealt wrongly, too, by over levering and over extending their reach into many different areas.  Examples include AIG, who used insurance to invest in funds that also had mortgage money in them.  However, they did this by their own free choice, something that the government made very clear that it wanted to test during the 90s, with all the talk about boys outgrowing their trousers, etc. and needing more room (i.e., less regulation).  The government wasn't going around proposing all this very dangerous investment, rather, it simply let the market roam free, and the market blew up.  That is a speculative bubble caused by a lack of regulation, not a failed plan of government planners.

I don't mean to be rude, and almost I'm sure that it was merely a slip of the key, but I feel that I must call a spade a spade.  Your argument against government intervention borders on conspiracy theory.  There was no ensured moral hazard; don't you recall how much a surprise it was when the bailout came?  If by picking winners and losers, you mean shutting down dishonest or defunct banks, then that is a necessary step in any situation.  Especially after the govenment made a 'big picture descion' not to regulate, as you suggest that it should, there is a need to search through the miles-thick stacks of paperwork that no-one had ever cared to peruse earlier.  Again, the only big picture decision made was to adopt a policy of laissez faire.

Offline Penguin

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2012, 09:03:37 AM »
Double Post, I know.  However, there are points that I forgot to make, and I hope that you can forgive the unsightliness of having two posts in a row.

I never said that I was arguing for central planning or Keynesian economics.  The former is untenable over the long term (unless it's something like general development, etc.) while the latter is woefully incomplete with regard to precision.  I do argue for government intervention in economic functions that are unprofitable but necessary, which includes having a good knowledge of the record systems and business strategies of corporations large enough to create damage the whole economy if they fell suddenly and unexpectedly.  Furthermore, even if I were arguing for central planning, the mortgage crisis that has nearly destroyed our financial system was the result of consistent, persistent deregulation of the financial sector.  Lenders such as Lehman Brothers, AIG, and others argued that it was time to take what they felt was an unnecessary burden off lenders and borrowers, and allow the market to determine what to do.  Even Ben Bernanke felt this way: He argued that laws against fraud were unnecessary because market forces would remove those who committed such acts.  Needless to say, Burnie Madof swiftly refuted Bernanke's claims with his enormous Ponzi scheme.

Therefore, there is no reason to argue that the financial crisis was caused by any complicated plan of bumbling politicians, economists, and, as you put it, a Guilded Gentry.  The only thing that caused it was removing the financial controls that had kept lending and investment in check for decades, and continue to do so in countries such as Canada.  Now, while I'm almost sure that the tone of your post was a slip of the tongue, I feel that it is time to call a spade a spade.  The way in which you present your argument of complicated plans of powerful men gone awry having caused our troubles and a Gilded Gentry lording over all borders on conspiracy theory.  That's not to belittle you or your post, but I thought that this was a debate about the Austrian school of thought, and not whether there has been a behind-the-scenes scheme to damage us all.  What especially troubles me is that you have not made a comment on the very core tenet of the Austrian school: The impossibility of predicting the various preferences of the populace via a central agency.  Now correct me if I'm wrong, but in The Road to Serfdom, Hayek makes an argument against socialism, and not financial regulation; this would be very much in line with how he wrote stinging critiques of that economic policy well into his late eighties.  Since this debate concerns matters of finance, then the Austrian school is irrelevant due to its focus on consumer goods, or you have misunderstood or worse, misconstrued its arguments.

-Penguin

Offline wil3ur

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Re: Argentina is not alone
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2012, 10:02:35 AM »
You've basically made my point.  Economists pushed for deregulation and Big Business lobbied for it using their political influence (hordes of money), was able to make stupid decisions that SHOULD have been corrected by market forces, as Bernake and others argued, while they (Bernake and Others) did the opposite and looted trillions from the public to reign in the chaff, rather than allow it to be scattered to the wind.

We have Fascism wrapped in the American Flag, where the businesses, the regulators, and the government are all interchangeable at any point in their careers.  The only effective way of keeping a handle on this would be to think of it as Quantum Economics.  You have to see the players in every possible seat and base your decisions on that, knowing that depending on when you take your measurement they'll be a CEO, a Regulator or a Congressman.
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