Author Topic: Balloons for WW1 arena.  (Read 802 times)

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2012, 07:03:42 PM »
If there was an effort to revitalize WW1 a Zepplin would be a great start. Add a Gotha bomber and some grond troops/positions to hit. The old sheep could be modeled into horses and cav attacks.

Only if, and the whole 'cost benefit analysis' adds up.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline caldera

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2012, 07:46:05 PM »
That's too bad, but I'll still hold out some hope for you. The crew of observation balloons were generally one or two guys hanging from a basket with no supernatural ability to run around on the top of their balloons. What seemed to stop the young'un from the reflexive 'whatever' response was a challenge to back a claim or assertion with fact when he got careless, even when in jest. His jokes and facts have gotten better.  :D

Perhaps then, you could have him read this thread; so that he could impart upon you the obvious fact that this:

So they'll have less room to run, whatever.   :D

 - was in fact, a joke.  :D

"Then out spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the gate:
 To every man upon this earth, death cometh soon or late.
 And how can man die better, than facing fearful odds.
 For the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods."

Offline Arlo

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2012, 08:11:07 PM »
Perhaps then, you could have him read this thread; so that he could impart upon you the obvious fact that this:

 - was in fact, a joke.  :D



He would certainly appreciate the fact that his are better.  :D

Offline B-17

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2012, 09:48:25 PM »
He would certainly appreciate the fact that his are better.  :D

LOL

Offline matt

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2012, 01:21:35 AM »
+1  troop with a rifle.

Offline pervert

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2012, 03:11:49 AM »
If there was an effort to revitalize WW1 a Zepplin would be a great start. Add a Gotha bomber and some grond troops/positions to hit. The old sheep could be modeled into horses and cav attacks.

Only if, and the whole 'cost benefit analysis' adds up.

Boo

Personally I could not really see ground troops in a WW1 arena and yes I know that flys in the face of erm well WW1 I can just see machines grinding to a halt with a couple of hundred, thousand, million troops I can't even shoot troops on a base capture ffs! :D Maybe manning archie or machine gun nests?

The bomber would require something to bomb although I would like to shoot up some bombers.

Zeppelin...I dunno how it was set up in warbirds? personally I would like to do it once or twice just to have done it but other than that whats the point? Even if it was a rallying point for a fight ie attackers and defenders once they go down they have to reup climb to 10k + by which time the zeppelin would be raped or the guys attempting it would not be bother to spend half an hour climbing for another go.  :(






Offline matt

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2012, 09:28:18 AM »
+1 just 1 troop with a rifle in a balloon.

Offline pervert

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2012, 11:49:50 AM »
An extract from Balloon Busting Aces Of World War 1.

In contrast to the fantastic variety of aeroplanes developed during World War 1, virtually all of the gasbags were basically either if the Drachen or Caquot type. In spite of the predominance of Caquot-influenced Type AEs by 1918, Allied troops and airmen often continued to generically refer to all the Central Powers kite balloons as Drachen, whether the sobriquet was technically accurate or not.

Communicating by telephone or wireless with forces on the ground, the balloon observers could detect frontline movements or direct any sort of artillery from a mortar attack on a precise tearget to massive, high-calibre howitzer barrages with murderous accuracy. As such they constituted a very real menace to the other side's ground forces. Destroying enemy balloons, therefore, was a very desirable objective before a major offensive or logistical support operation was to be carried out.

On the face of it, a voluminous bag of hydrogen would seem an easy target for an enterprising figher pilot, but for a number of reasons most airmen regarded balloon-bursting missions as extraordinarily difficult and dangerous. First and formost, the gasbags were located deep within enemy lines, requiring their attackers to go after them while exposed to observation, aerial interception and every enemy soldier carrying a gun. although the balloon floated several thousand feet above the ground, it could be rapidly pulled down by means of a powered winch when attacked, while the balloon company's attached batteries of anti-aircraft artillery and machine guns surrounded it with a descending cone of fire through which the attacking fighter had to dive.

Once he reached his downward-rushing quarry, the fighter pilot found it surprisingly difficult to ignite the pure hydrogen that gave the balloon its buoyancy, even with incendiary bullets. Only by pouring a sustained burst into the gasbag, allowing some hydrogen to escape and mix with the oxygen, could the attacking fighter hope to touch off the fire that, once started, would quickly consume the entire balloon. If he failed to set it alight, the pilot had two options - give up and head for home, or gamble at even less favourable odds by making another firing pass through fully aroused, and consequently more intense, ground fire at even lower altitude.

Once ignited, a burning balloon could be seen for miles, assuring confirmation for the fighter pilot who destroyed it, provided he returned to claim the kill. But the pyre was equally visible to the enemy, and the returning balloon buster faced a gauntlet of anti-aircraft and ground fire, as well as vengeful enemy fighter converging on his most likely escape route. Taken in sum, those factors caused attacking balloons to be widely regarded as a suicide mission. requiring as much luck as skill on the pilot's part.


This to me done correctly as something of a challenge to do, and provide players with an objective in the absence of sufficient player numbers.

Offline shdo

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2012, 12:00:49 PM »

Zeppelin...I dunno how it was set up in warbirds? personally I would like to do it once or twice just to have done it but other than that whats the point? Even if it was a rallying point for a fight ie attackers and defenders once they go down they have to reup climb to 10k + by which time the zeppelin would be raped or the guys attempting it would not be bother to spend half an hour climbing for another go.  :(


in WB the Zeppelin was the "Strategic Bomber" and in WB all  you really had to bomb were the other sides airfields.  It had about 50-75 100lb bombs and about 6 manned guns (.303 Lewis' I believe).  It was quite a trick bombing in them as they turned sooooooo slow and you needed to drop 10+ bombs to destroy anything.  Added to that that the bombs were ballast, so when you dropped them you started climbing and the bomb sight needed to re-calibrate to hit at the higher altitude.  You would spend 20 minutes getting to 10k to start dropping, gain about 5k of altitude during the drop then spend 20 minutes getting back down.  Ballast/Hydrogen management were key skills you had to have to get up and back down successfully.  

The planes could load either normal or incendiary rounds.  Normal rounds worked better on other AC and incendiary rounds worked better on Zeppelins.  Having said that normal rounds would cause the Zeppelins to loose gas but not explode so they were useful and they could kill the gunners.  It usually took a group of airplanes to take down a Zeppelin but everybody and there sister would die as many times as it took to take em down.  Kinda like bombers in WB/AH now.  They could take more hits but they died much more often than they landed.

Either way they were fun to fly and fun to shoot down.  I seem to recall we had about 6 or so different AC in WB including some 2 seaters that in the right hands were deadly.

shdo

Offline Weirdguy

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2012, 06:35:32 AM »
If I recall, Dawn of Aces (which was Warbirds WW-1 arena by another name) has two-seaters that could be used in a "Bomber" role.  You had a sight in the form of an photographic camera.  When you took a picture, AI artillery guns would then shell that location.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2012, 06:44:02 AM »
If I recall, Dawn of Aces (which was Warbirds WW-1 arena by another name) has two-seaters that could be used in a "Bomber" role.  You had a sight in the form of an photographic camera.  When you took a picture, AI artillery guns would then shell that location.

That would be a reconnaissance/psuedo-aerial fire control role. Ahem. ;)

Here's a bomber:



Then again, technically speaking, any plane could have been a bomber in WWI:


Offline pervert

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2012, 08:51:12 AM »
in WB the Zeppelin was the "Strategic Bomber" and in WB all  you really had to bomb were the other sides airfields.  It had about 50-75 100lb bombs and about 6 manned guns (.303 Lewis' I believe).  It was quite a trick bombing in them as they turned sooooooo slow and you needed to drop 10+ bombs to destroy anything.  Added to that that the bombs were ballast, so when you dropped them you started climbing and the bomb sight needed to re-calibrate to hit at the higher altitude.  You would spend 20 minutes getting to 10k to start dropping, gain about 5k of altitude during the drop then spend 20 minutes getting back down.  Ballast/Hydrogen management were key skills you had to have to get up and back down successfully.  

The planes could load either normal or incendiary rounds.  Normal rounds worked better on other AC and incendiary rounds worked better on Zeppelins.  Having said that normal rounds would cause the Zeppelins to loose gas but not explode so they were useful and they could kill the gunners.  It usually took a group of airplanes to take down a Zeppelin but everybody and there sister would die as many times as it took to take em down.  Kinda like bombers in WB/AH now.  They could take more hits but they died much more often than they landed.

Either way they were fun to fly and fun to shoot down.  I seem to recall we had about 6 or so different AC in WB including some 2 seaters that in the right hands were deadly.

shdo

I can see that as being fun and a means of having a fight as well, only thing is I have read about zeppelins getting raped in real life quite easily so would it be realistic or was it just a means for gameplay having it so hard to take down? I like the idea of being able to pick a ammo loadout like incendiary rounds.

Offline shdo

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Re: Balloons for WW1 arena.
« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2012, 02:36:02 PM »
The Zeppelins were not hard to take down.  There were techniques that worked and techniques that didn't.  Part of that was the maneuvering envelope of the attacking planes.  You could not zoom climb 4000 feet, you could not dive from 5000 feet above and expect to have your wings.  You were limited to a narrower engagement envelope than we have with the WWII planes.  The other part of it is that you had to put rounds on target and you couldn't just spray and pray and expect it to blow up.

In "Real Life" (tm) you had to get enough hydrogen out and mixing with oxygen to have a combustible mixture.  Just sending an incendiary round into a bag of hydrogen will not an explosion or fire make.  To model this in WB you had to do enough damage to one area, they were not small but there were more than 6 i believe, to "rupture" the gas bag and to make it burn.  Once one area was burning the whole thing was coming down.

What this meant in WB was that it either took one person multiple passes at the same area to ignite the gas bag or it took a coordinated effort to do so.  Additionally we used to fly the Zeppelins in "formation" thus being able to use the guns in some mutual support.  We got to be pretty good shots - there were no computer controlled guns on the Zeppelins. 

What tended to work best was an attack on the front of the gas bag or multiple people coming from the sides and shooting the length of the gas bag, 3 or 4 passes and it was in flames.  A good group could take down 3 or 4 Zeppelins before running out of ammo. 

Remember - no cannons, no exploding shells, and at most 2 .303 mg's with a low rate of fire.  It was like when Spit I's and Hurri I's showed up in WB.  They could take down bombers but you had to know how/where to shoot.  Crossing snapshots were not going to kill like the cannons cannon armed planes could.

shdo