Author Topic: How do you approach a Spit?  (Read 7659 times)

Offline FLS

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2012, 06:50:08 PM »
If the D-11 has full flaps out the radius is slightly smaller than the Spit16 with no flaps but the turn rate would be much slower. Smaller radius is an advantage turning nose to nose but the Spit still has all it's options at that point and the Jug is stuck in a slow turn. 

Offline Wiley

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2012, 07:06:38 PM »
Ink- I've been thinking about it,I just am not quite sure I can commit to it.

FLS- it could be I just didn't have the familiarity to get the overshoot early on and assumed it just wasn't possible.  The comment from Big Rat makes a lot of sense, about finishing it fast.

Wiley.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2012, 07:11:41 PM »
unless the spit driver makes a mistake he uses his climb rate to get above me and it's all downhill from there.


Key.  No spit should get drawn into an overshoot - he just goes up instead.

Then, as you point out, you're toast.

- oldman (unless you're in a Frank and can go up, too)

Offline FLS

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2012, 07:14:35 PM »
Weight directly affect momentum which is an objects ability to resist changes in velocity. Think of it this way, heavy is hard to get going but once it gets going she don't wanna stop. The jug just suffers from serious drag, if it weren't for the weight it would hemmorage E instead of just bleed it.

I think you're forgetting that the lift has to balance the weight. As you reduce the weight you reduce the induced drag since you need less lift. You're probably just considering the parasitic drag.


FLS- it could be I just didn't have the familiarity to get the overshoot early on and assumed it just wasn't possible.  The comment from Big Rat makes a lot of sense, about finishing it fast.

Wiley.

It's about your only chance in that situation Wiley and if the bandit anticipates your move it's not going to work. Of course you should never underestimate the ability of people to screw up.  :lol

BTW you don't have to join the ladder to duel people. Just ask.

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2012, 07:20:58 PM »
BTW you don't have to join the ladder to duel people. Just ask.

This is true.  What the ladder provides is a framework where duelists are gathered together.  For me, I don't have to worry about encroaching on someone else's "play time".  I know that the ladder participants are interested in dueling without having to ask.  Challenge instead!

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Offline clerick

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2012, 07:40:33 PM »
I think you're forgetting that the lift has to balance the weight. As you reduce the weight you reduce the induced drag since you need less lift. You're probably just considering the parasitic drag.

making no assumptions. Just commenting on the way it is, not on a what could be.

Offline FLS

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2012, 08:37:36 PM »
making no assumptions. Just commenting on the way it is, not on a what could be.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant your comment was incorrect, if it was lighter you would lose less energy not more.

Offline clerick

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2012, 09:06:54 PM »
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant your comment was incorrect, if it was lighter you would lose less energy not more.

maneuvering, yes.

Offline mtnman

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2012, 09:20:40 PM »
Precisely my issue with Spits.  I can deal with them if I have a club to use on them.  I actually often do better if I'm starting from a LOWER E state than the spit than if I'm co-E.

That's why I'm interested in what one does with a co-E one.

Wiley.

It may sound too obvious, and maybe even snide...  But...

Don't leave it co-E.  If you do better with more or less E than him, change your E.

Personally, I'm almost always going to do my best to retain (or create) and E-advantage over a spit, right up until the time I need to dump a little for a sure kill-shot.  Like Rat, I'm a hog flyer, and although I'm comfortable having less E than a spit, I always try to keep or build my E, figuring that I can easily dump it to change tactics if needed.  

I'll also almost always try to make it appear that I have less E than I actually do, trying to bait my opponent into dumping his own to turn with me.  I do that by adjusting angles though, not by dumping my own E.  It's not at all uncommon for me to fight a spit that's initially higher and faster than me, and for me to then have an E-advantage over him shortly thereafter.

Of course it's all situational, but in broad terms to try to force the overshoot, I'd be pulling higher G's for turns, using rudder to create drag, going nose high where possible in the scissors, deploying flaps as I'm able.  Usually at some point in this unless the spit driver makes a mistake he uses his climb rate to get above me and it's all downhill from there.

I think I maybe need to revisit my tactics against Spits, as my abilities have changed a fair bit since I thought about it analytically.

Wiley.


I just want to point out that this is NOT what I'd do to create an overshoot.  In broad terms, I'd never try to do it that way, unless I was desperate and in big trouble.  It takes away too many options.

Do it with angles, rather than trying to do it by slowing down.  Once you create the overshoot, you'll want to be fast enough to kill your opponent.  If you're too slow that won't happen.

I'll agree with the nose high in the scissors part, for two reasons.  One, is position, the second is so that I can come back down again (build speed, retain E).  I'll also agree that I use flaps, but I'm NOT using them to slow down (that's just an unpleasant by-product).

Finishing the fight fast is vital.  The longer it drags out the more problems you'll have; both with the guy you're killing and the next one(s) along...
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 09:23:45 PM by mtnman »
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Offline FLS

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2012, 09:23:25 PM »
maneuvering, yes.

I don't understand your point. Do you mean that while turning it would have less drag but flying straight and level it wouldn't have less drag even though it still requires less lift?

Offline clerick

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2012, 09:39:12 PM »
I don't understand your point. Do you mean that while turning it would have less drag but flying straight and level it wouldn't have less drag even though it still requires less lift?

no.

you have two identical objects, except one has more mass. You move them along the same vector, the heavier one will travel longer than the lighter one once power is removed.

Offline shiv

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2012, 11:39:34 PM »

I'll also almost always try to make it appear that I have less E than I actually do, trying to bait my opponent into dumping his own to turn with me.  I do that by adjusting angles though, not by dumping my own E.  It's not at all uncommon for me to fight a spit that's initially higher and faster than me, and for me to then have an E-advantage over him shortly thereafter.


If I may ask, any direction on how you would implement this against a higher faster Spit? I would appreciate it.

Might be relevant to other planes too, not just the hog, so hopefully not too much of a hijack.




« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 11:45:42 PM by shiv »
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Offline FLS

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2012, 04:20:09 AM »
no.

you have two identical objects, except one has more mass. You move them along the same vector, the heavier one will travel longer than the lighter one once power is removed.

That's not correct in the case of aircraft. If all else is equal a heavier aircraft will glide the same distance as a lighter aircraft but it will glide faster.

Offline clerick

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2012, 05:36:02 AM »
That's not correct in the case of aircraft. If all else is equal a heavier aircraft will glide the same distance as a lighter aircraft but it will glide faster.

I'm not seeing where the the physics is different here. What makes inertia behave differently in AC than in everything else?

Offline FLS

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2012, 06:58:16 AM »
I know it seems counter intuitive but as I mentioned earlier,  in both cases the weight is balanced by the lift, more weight requires more lift and increasing lift increases drag.

If the aircraft were on the ground and not flying then, all else being equal, the heavier aircraft would roll farther just as you'd expect.