Author Topic: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED  (Read 1208 times)

Offline Peyton

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COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« on: July 23, 2012, 10:35:31 AM »
Some combat trim questions.

Set up is using a twisty joystick and a ch pro throttle usb.

1) If I am in auto climb and go level without hitting the combat trim button on when I am level, is my plane trimmed for climbing? So if I am in a dogfight will I be at a disadvantage?
2) Everytime your plane goes level, or auto climb or descend should you engage combat trim?
3) If you disengage combat trim and fly up and down and all around, will your plane trim stay in one place?
4) If combat trim is on do you have to "reset it" by turning it off and on again if you ascend or descend?
5)Can anyone provide hints or tips on using or not using combat trim when flying?
6) I've seen P-38s and Spits merge then turn really fast to get on your six. Are these by the use of macros, combat trim off or dual throttles?
7) Does combat trim not allow a "fast" turn or loop as described in #6?
8) How can I turn or loop faster after a merge with combat trim on?

Please do not suggest pedals as they are not an option.

Thanks
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 10:38:33 AM by Peyton »

Offline Hap

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 10:38:21 AM »
Some combat trim questions.

Set up is using a twisty joystick and a ch pro throttle usb.

1) If I am in auto climb and go level without hitting the combat trim button on when I am level, is my plane trimmed for climbing? So if I am in a dogfight will I be at a disadvantage?
2) Everytime your plane goes level, or auto climb or descend should you engage combat trim?
3) If you disengage combat trim and fly up and down and all around, will your plane trim stay in one place?
4) If combat trim is on do you have to "reset it" by turning it off and on again if you ascend or descend?
5)Can anyone provide hints or tips on using or not using combat trim when flying?

Please do not suggest pedals as they are not an option.

Thanks
1) no.  2) no; it's already on if the box is checked.  3) yes; 4) no.  when it's on; it stays on.  5) i use manual trim for those times when really fast is needed; usu when i'm running for my life at 500++ tas, or to avoid auguring.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 10:40:29 AM by Hap »

Offline FLS

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 10:52:07 AM »
Any time you use an auto trim command, trim for level, trim for angle, trim for speed, or combat trim, the trim tabs stay in the position they were in when you turned the auto trim off unless you have trim mapped to analog controls.

Trim can not make you turn better but it may be easier to ride the beginning of the stall when you are trimmed for your current speed.

Combat trim is useful for stayng trimmed as your speed changes but it can be a problem in very slow flight and very fast flight so it's often best to turn it off when stall fighting or near max speed.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 12:18:30 PM »
6) I've seen P-38s and Spits merge then turn really fast to get on your six. Are these by the use of macros, combat trim off or dual throttles?

Pilot skill.

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Offline Midway

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 12:46:44 PM »
Pilot skill.

ack-ack

I suppose... But a better answer, I think, is turn tight to the edge of black out and even beyond for a second at a time, chopping throttle.   I think that's the quickest way to get around, from what i have learned so far, but loses much E.  Combat trim is on the whole time and wouldn't make a difference in this situation.


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Offline Kingpin

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2012, 12:59:33 PM »
Combat trim is useful for stayng trimmed as your speed changes but it can be a problem in very slow flight and very fast flight so it's often best to turn it off when stall fighting or near max speed.

Is it correct that Combat Trim does not take into account deployment of flaps?  That is to say, when you use flaps, shouldn't you also disengage Combat Trim?

If possible, Peyton, I would suggest mapping both Elevator Trim and Combat Trim Toggle to a convenient wheel/button.  I have elevator trim mapped to an analog wheel on my throttle, so I am able to quickly use that (which also kicks off Combat Trim).  By pressing the same wheel (it is also a button) I can toggle Combat Trim back on/off.

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Offline Wiley

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2012, 01:07:11 PM »
Is it correct that Combat Trim does not take into account deployment of flaps?  That is to say, when you use flaps, shouldn't you also disengage Combat Trim?

It's generally a good idea.  If you leave it on, you'll be trimmed way nose-high due to the flaps.

All combat trim does is use trim settings from a table for different speeds for the aircraft, assuming a clean configuration, with no flaps.  Flaps, damage, even being heavy or not makes it slightly off.  It's not meant to be perfect, it's meant to be convenient.

I generally turn off my CT when my speed gets below 150.  I have aileron and elevator trim mapped to my stick for high speed and low speed adjustment for maneuvering.

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Offline Fud

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2012, 01:45:37 PM »
You can also use your trim tabs to steer in compression. (for those who need to re-enter earths atmoshpere)
I used combat trim when I'm flying out to the fight but turned them off when in combat.
Take note of the difference in turning when you toggle back and forth from combat and manual trim.
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Offline FLS

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2012, 03:43:20 PM »
Is it correct that Combat Trim does not take into account deployment of flaps?  That is to say, when you use flaps, shouldn't you also disengage Combat Trim?

If possible, Peyton, I would suggest mapping both Elevator Trim and Combat Trim Toggle to a convenient wheel/button.  I have elevator trim mapped to an analog wheel on my throttle, so I am able to quickly use that (which also kicks off Combat Trim).  By pressing the same wheel (it is also a button) I can toggle Combat Trim back on/off.

<S>


Good points Kingpin. Analog trim will not turn off combat trim when moved so you must be pressing the wheel when you first move it. Whether or not you want flaps to put your nose up depends on what you want to accomplish so I wouldn't say you always need to turn combat trim off but it's good to be aware that it doesn't adjust for flap position.

Offline katanaso

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2012, 03:52:31 PM »
Some combat trim questions.
6) I've seen P-38s and Spits merge then turn really fast to get on your six. Are these by the use of macros, combat trim off or dual throttles?
7) Does combat trim not allow a "fast" turn or loop as described in #6?
8) How can I turn or loop faster after a merge with combat trim on?

Practice, and pay attention to your speed.  Work the throttle as needed, flaps as needed, and utilize angles to gain or lose E, as needed.

Combat trim isn't going to enable you to do anything you can't already do without it enabled.

Instead of straight loops or flat turns, try high or low yo-yo's, depending on the situation.

It all comes by practice and experience.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2012, 04:56:20 PM »
The longer you play the less you'll rely on it. I use it mostly for gunning ground targets/GVs with cannon birds. Often when diving for a pick I'll turn it on. But for most turning fights you should manually set trim if possible. Even for divebombing manual trim set is best. Auto trim has its place. But less and less as time goes on.

90% of the time I only use it for IL2s, 87Gs, Hurri llDs, and Yak9-Ts. When you have to trim quick to attack a GV.
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Offline Badboy

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2012, 05:00:45 PM »
Some combat trim questions.

5)Can anyone provide hints or tips on using or not using combat trim when flying?


Yes, the best thing to do is to leave combat trim on all the time, with just a couple of exceptions. I'll mention the exceptions in a moment but I want to justify my advice for leaving combat trim on. Firstly trimming manually while turning does not confer a rate or radius advantage, but it does have the big drawback that it takes up valuable thinking time. In combat the fewer distractions the better, the less time your brain needs to spend processing busy work, the more time you can focus on maneuvering and situational awareness (SA). So if it doesn't help, and distracts you, why do it? Couple of good reasons, firstly at very high speed if you have lost control authority with the stick, trim may be the only way to maneuver, but that is mostly only going to happen in a high speed dive. You mentioned the P-38, and I always use manual trim in the P-38 once the flaps come out. Mainly because when you are at full flaps in the P-38 there is a strong nose up pitch tendency that can be very detrimental. At full flaps it can be helpful to trim nose down so that when the stick is in the neutral position, there is no uncommanded pitch caused by the flaps. This will make the P-38 much easier to fly at ultra low speeds. That situation is not confined to the P-38, but in every case the secret to making it work for you is to be able to employ your flaps and manual trim without having to think about it. To do that you need to figure it out offline, and then practice it, so you can drop flaps and trim  by the right amounts automatically, when you can do that smoothly while under pressure you will be getting close to the zone... But it is a skill that takes time to acquire.     

Quote
  6) I've seen P-38s and Spits merge then turn really fast to get on your six. Are these by the use of macros, combat trim off or dual throttles?

Firstly, that can be an illusion caused by the geomtry involved, if there is an element of lead turning involved due to initial separation, or if you simply misjudged the bandit's angle off or energy, it can appear as though they are pulling that magical bat turn, but there is no such thing.

However, there are things good pilots do that may surprise you, for example, they can come in fast but then deliberately lose speed rapidly to tighten their turn radius in the initial stages of the turn by using high G and throttling back, if you don't spot that and keep your speed high they can get in position for a shot very quickly. If they combine that with the use of flaps as the speed drops they can generate very high turn rates while you are still too fast to keep them from cutting across the circle and getting enough lead for a shot. The players who prefer that type of tactic are almost always good shots, they are counting on getting the first shot opportunity and converting it to a quick kill. The risk is that they dump too much energy for that shot, if they miss the energy they lost will haunt them for the rest of the fight.

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7) Does combat trim not allow a "fast" turn or loop as described in #6?

No, but if you are doing what I described above in the P-38, when you drop flaps it can be advantageous to use manual trim, but that's because it improves aircraft handling, which in turn may allow you to optimize your turn more easily, but the trim itself will not make any difference to the aircrafts ability to turn.

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8) How can I turn or loop faster after a merge with combat trim on?

If you merge with a bandit and you both pull into an immelmann, or high slice, and you want that first high aspect shot the trick is to tighten the turn more quickly than your opponent, and many players do that by entering the merge fast, in the hope your opponent will think you intend to hold your E, then pulling all the way into blackout while cutting throttle just enough to pull your nose onto the bandit before he gets his nose onto you. If you have a shot and he doesn't, the fight ends right there. If you enter the fight fast, the trick is to drop to corner velocity as quickly as possible, mostly with G and a little aft throttle, but then once you get your flaps out, get back to full throttle and wep.

If you are merging over 300mph, and corner velocity for most aircraft is somewhere below 200mph and flaps drop very soon after that, at high G it will all happen very quickly, there simply isn't enough time to think about it. The secret to getting it right is practice and more practice. You can learn to do everything, and line up for a perfect snap shot at the same time, with surprising little practice but it has to be the right sort of practice. Ideally you need to find someone who can do it much better than you can and fight them every chance you get. The other way is to join a squad that has some hot sticks, and get some time in with them. 

The thing about learning this stuff is that the skills will be slow coming, all good things take time. You need to fight players who are better than you, film every fight and try to figure out what they are doing. But most importantly spend as much time as possible fighting against guys who are better than you. If you have the right attitude, most of the good sticks in the game will be willing to share tips and advice.

Good luck

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Offline Midway

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2012, 05:06:15 PM »
BadBoy, your response is awesome, as usual.  I very much appreciate your thoughts!  They all makes sense to me.  

Now if you can tell me your in-game name so I don't accidently smack talk you too bad, that would be good... and create less shame for me. :D

 :salute :rock


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Offline Kingpin

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2012, 07:58:30 PM »

Now if you can tell me your in-game name so I don't accidently smack talk you too bad, that would be good... and create less shame for me. :D


The simpler option would be to stop being a jerk, instead of working so hard at failing to selectively be a jerk.

Consider your ways.   :old:  Off topic, as your posts tend to be, but "helpful advice" (in the help forum) none the less.
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Offline shiv

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Re: COMBAT TRIM ADVICE NEEDED
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 12:14:10 PM »
I have elevator trim mapped to a slider, and I always keep that slider about 90% forward. That's in an F4U. So if I go to manual trim then I'm automatically nose heavy. I have a button on the stick to toggle combat trim on and off.

The only time I shut off combat trim is when I get the flaps out. Otherwise the combat trim would be adjusting for the flaps, making it hard to maneuver and (especially) shoot.
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