What to do about the P-51D scourge?

[bj229r]

Instead of perking the 1,000 lb bombs on fighters, perhaps they could simply be eliminated as a choice in the hangar.
Sure they were "used in teh war" but this is a game and hordes of super fast p-51 bombers flattening everything is lame.
Make it so only bombers can carry bombs bigger than 250 lbs and let them do the heavy smashing. 

By limiting fighters to 250 lb bombs, there would be a reason to fly the medium bombers.

WOULD like to see some usage stats on the 51 as an attacker vs the Jug...WHY would you use a deep-penetration escort as a jabo when you have the now increasingly obsolete, NON-radiator Jug?

[Lusche]

.WHY would you use a deep-penetration escort as a jabo when you have the now increasingly obsolete, NON-radiator Jug?

Performance after the drop.

[bustr]

80\20 Rules of Aces High Air Combat.

80% Rule 1 - Survival at all costs is it's own reason.
20% Rule 1 - Fighting is it's own reward.

80% Rule 2 - The means of survival justifies the choice and it's abuse.
20% Rule 2 - The means of the fight is the measure of the pilot.

80% Rule 3 - That I survived is it's own reward.
20% Rule 3 - How I died is as important as how I survived.

80% Rule 4 - Dieing is unacceptable.
20% Rule 4 - Unlimited revenge waits in the hanger.

80% Rule 5 - I'm not as good as you so anything I do to you is acceptable to me.
20% Rule 5 - Oh gawd, another HOing, hoarding runtard.

The P51D makes an excellent tool for the 80% to abuse because it compliments the 5 rules.

[Scotch]

^ Those are actually pretty good.

[guncrasher]

But if you don't keep turnfighting past the second turn, and take your cartoon death with cartoon honor, then you are just a picker and a runner!    

there's nothing I love more than turn fighting in a pony.  but If i dont kill you after the second turn they I just look back and smile and get me another plane. 

let me tell you a little secret, there is no honor in this game.  we play for fun and that is it.  if you want honor then join the boy scouts.


semp

[guncrasher]

I agree with what you are saying, but this is not really about limiting what people fly.  It's about how they choose to use their ords.  Karnak clarifies this several posts into this thread with the idea of perking bomb loadouts (not the plane), because of how the P-51 is abused as a high-speed bomb delivery vehicle, and in many cases a suicide one.  

Yes, everyone in the LWMA should be able to fly the plane of their choice.  But lifting a fighter to go fight is one thing, whereas taking heavy ponies to go crash into a CV, v-Base or fighter hangers, has a much greater impact on how other people get to play the game.  The ability to have that kind of impact on the game should come with a cost, especially for failure (not landing) and that is, perk points.

By making those load-outs which have a high impact on the game cost perk points (tied into the ENY of the plane) you may see fewer suicide jabo runs, especially using low ENY planes like the Pony-D.

A cost for premium ord load-outs could extend to any AC, and might also be an effective method for cutting down on the ridiculous Lanc-stuka and low-alt suicide carpet-bombing runs many players make over and over, regardless of their dying every time.

 

  

you do realize that if they get rid of the 1000 (is it lbs or kgs?)  then people will just up in heavy p47's which can carry THREE 1000 lbs bombs.  so what exactly is going to change?.  I remember many a night when I would kill 4 or 5 vtards in their p47's as they were on their way to a base.  they would just refuse to engage until they delivered their bombs.

so I dont see what the big deal is about the ponyd having 1000lb bombs when there's others that have more. the idea of perking the ponyd with 2 bombs or lowering the eny or getting rid of the bombs is a stupid idea as they will just move on to another plane that can carry the same ords.


semp

[Kingpin]

^ Those are actually pretty good.

I don't think this is about the "survive at all costs" players, but more those who make NO attempt at survival.  Suicide jabos, bomb-and-bailers, and low-alt suicide carpet bombing, in my opinion, all have a dramatic effect on how others get to play the game while seriously detracting from any sense of realistic combat.

Perks on heavy ords would put a tangible in-game cost to these suicide methods.  If it limits the use for those who would rather die augering into a CV or hanger, or come in at 1000 feet and die in the ack, regardless of the cost (a death), then I think a perk cost for 1000lbers would be most welcome in the game.

And I doubt the bombers who fly to survive, especially the good ones, will feel any impact on their perks, as they'll still land more perks than they'd spend.  Other than the B29, isn't a use for bomber perks in pretty short demand anyway?  I mean, seriously, how many bomber perks must somebody like triple nines have?

Semp, I don't think jugs carry 3x1000, and are easier to stop than heavy ponies.  But the bottom line, again, is it creates a COST to impact the game with suicide dweebery.

+1 again for the idea of perking ALL heavy bomb loads

Perhaps using a formula of some kind like 100/planeENY = PerkCost for 1000lbers?

 

[kvuo75]

you do realize that if they get rid of the 1000 (is it lbs or kgs?)  then people will just up in heavy p47's which can carry THREE 1000 lbs bombs. 

i thought 2x1000 and 1x500.  

[Lusche]

WOULD like to see some usage stats on the 51 as an attacker vs the Jug...

There are no such stats available.
However, we can look at kills of Air-to-Ground kills and Ground-to-Air deaths combines as a (weak) substitution:



Of course it's only showing part of the picture, especially in terms of offensive vs defensive attack missions. Spit 16s are mostly used defensively, while P-51 are much more being used on strikes into enemy territory.

[guncrasher]

i thought 2x1000 and 1x500.  

still more ords and rockets and ammo than a fully loaded pony.  and if you are gonna hit and run like lots of people claim, it wont be any difference between either plane.


semp

[SmokinLoon]

still more ords and rockets and ammo than a fully loaded pony.  and if you are gonna hit and run like lots of people claim, it wont be any difference between either plane.


semp

If the P47 was anywhere near the P51D in terms of low level flying then it would be the norm since it can carry another 500 lb bomb and another pair of rockets, AND another pair of .50 cals with plenty more ammo to spare.  However, the P51D can bring down a hanger all by its lonesome with its current max ordnance and once the ordnance is gone then it shines as a vulcher.  The P51D can do it all better than the P47 down low in terms of plane performance, obviously the jug can bring more ordnance weight to the party but it isnt needed.

[Fish42]

still more ords and rockets and ammo than a fully loaded pony.  and if you are gonna hit and run like lots of people claim, it wont be any difference between either plane.


semp

If all they wanted was max load they would fly the P-47N/D-40 or P-38, but how often do you see that? The only times I can remember it was when they had eny restrictions on the Pony D.

Also there is a big difference between the other bombtrucks and the pony D, once a pony drops it will be 20-40mph quicker then all the others. And some like the lighting would be even slower as their rocket rail trees, cause high drag. Then you take into account skill levels in the average horde. The dive/compress/drop bomb before death dance would become much more common if the P-38 was the plane of choice, and not many know how to make the jug work without 3-4000ft to BnZ with.

The only reason the pony is used so much, is once the ords are away it is a good fighter with a forgiving attitude.

[SQUAT!]

I still say FLY A FASTER PLANE. Or you could watch for a large dar bar and intercept it before it hits the base.

[save]

Yet we still have the lowest possible manifold values for many of the axis prop fighter types.

For example 1,98 ATA where used for !09k.

Setting 150 octane fuel for allied plane types and keeping the lowest values for axis type only makes for less diversity

Maybe one day I can turn with a Lancaster in an A8.

When the P51B entered the ETO it flew on 130 octane like it is modeled in the MA. The P51D entered service in the ETO using 150 octane. Why not have the P51D changed to 72" manfold and 150 octane with a perk of 20 - 30? The P51D in the ETO was not a 130 octane bird when it met the Dora or K4 like our P51D is in the MA. One could argue any allied fighter introduced June 44 on should be running 150 and perked.

A similare argument to change the spit14 to 21lbs boost and increase it's perk to match the Tempest along with the Tempest changed to 11lbs boost. British fighters in the 2nd Tactical over the continent at the same time as the P51D were running on 150.

And we know WEP is used as the standard "Combat Warp 12 Speed" in this game along with relyance on it to enable many exotic aerobatic combat manuvers that just wouldn't work very well without that little bit of torquy boost at the right choreographed moment. Not "War Emergency Power", especially since it repowers itself like a Mario Brothers power up token.

Make it the P51D the real humdinger it was and perk it appropriatly. If players still want to be runstangs let them do it in the P51B. It's just as competitive in the MA with all the non-perk rides minus 2-.50cal but, you have to tote around those bazooka tubes after you de-ack. So remember to bring escorts to fight and vulch for you to save you from the defending Brewsters.

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Deliveries of Grade 100/150 aviation fuel to Eighth Air Force fighter airfields commenced in June 1944. This coincidentally occured about the same time as the introduction of the P-51D into service. Even though the USAAF had cleared the P-51 for 75" Hg., the Eighth Air Force chose 72" Hg as the P-51's War Emergency Rating.

[Debrody]

Save, please... when i was flying the D9, i had no problems in turning against ponies, nor catching them. Also, the A8 is the worst 190, by far...  
Anyway, just to settle down, i would bet the 150 octane fuel will not be added. If you keep up the lamentation about this, that surely isnt the best you can do.

I hate the runstangs (and run-nineties, and the holala-s) just the same as you, but listen, here is the solution: D9 against the single ones, 262 against the mass of them.