P-51 vs. Erroneous Perception

[muzik]

Eric Hartmann, of WWII Germany with the largest amount of kills, ever, said most of the guys he shot down didn't even know he was there. He fired so close that often his own plane was damaged from exploding debris. ACM - B n Z - Turn and Burn its matters not... its matters when you are still up and he is in the tower. My dad once told me, when you get in a fight, you have a choice... do you want to win or lose. After you make the choice to win, you use every tool in your toolbox to ensure that, never fight the other guys fight... make it yours and keep every advantage you can. The only kind of "ACM" that I feel are not valid are the "score hound",  "pick" and "run" types. IMHO

Unfortunately, the smarter of the "anti-pony" movement don't dispute the facts concerning how things really were. They believe that this is a game. Can you believe it? A game and we don't really live here.

You'll hear things like "if your countryman asks for you to jump in and help with a 1v1 fight in the MA, he should be left to die because this might be the other guys rare serendipitous fight." "It was a once in a lifetime and you ruined it for everyone, even the guy losing it."

[Shifty]

I hope Shane goes to the next canyon furball. I want to shoot him in the arse.  

Shane has schooled me more times than I can count over the years. Be careful what you wish for.  

As for P-51 pilots.. They're like everyone else, just trying to get the most out of their airplane's strong points.
Some are just better at it than others.

[uptown]

Shane has schooled me more times than I can count over the years. Be careful what you wish for. 

shhhhhh  That's my tactic to get some training in without having to actually ask for it. 

[Shifty]

 

Actually he's always been willing to share what he knows.

[HL117]

BigR is probably the best pony stick I've run across so far.


Nights ingame are limited but this  ^^^ IMHO, he is one of the few I see down and dirty in the grass.

HL

[Ack-Ack]

LOL at mentioning rocky and expert in the same sentence.

High perch, dive, miss, engage warp, run away all the way back to friendly ack, turn around, engage warp, make HO, land.

Its funny seeing someone who will only duel at 30,000ft make fun of how others fly. 

ack-ack

[Reaper90]

BigR is probably the best pony stick I've run across so far.

QFT.

[RTR]

I'd like to chime in here if I may, although I haven't flown here for almost 2 years.

Re  Shane: I echo what others have said here. One of the best sticks I have come across and one of the most willing to take you aside, if you ask him, and give you some schooling. He doesn't have superhuman flying abilities...he has remarkable SA and the ability to read Energy and predict where you will be. Most times he forces you to be where he needs you to be. He is very much a high speed chess player, and very good at it. If you get an opportunity to visit the DA with him...take it. I did and it was one of my fondest memories here...I learned a ton and found that his patience in that environment was boundless.
Enough said about Shane...other than if I find time to come back....I'm hunting. LOL.

Re Best pony Driver:   I gotta say it was ASW. That guy was just dialed in with it. He would knife fight with it and most times come out on top. Sadly ASW moved on and doesn't fly here anymore either.

Re the erroneus perception of the P51:  Even ASW knew its limits and flew it to its strengths. It's not normally a knife fight in a phone booth type aircraft (although sometimes you would think it was when you flew against him), but in the hands of someone who has some time behind them against someone who is not as experienced it can be deadly. This is why you see a Pony for instance seem to out turn a Spit. he (or she) isn't really out turning them, he (or she) is really just out thinking them and using the strengths of their aircraft.

There seems to be some lost knowledge in the last few years here about the different types of air to air fights. I'm not sure why.

There is a difference between a CO-E, similar aircraft, low altitude knife fight and an E- Fight.

For example....2 SpitV's...or a SpitV and a Zeke...or a SpitV and an Emil or Franz equals a knife fight in a phone booth.

Conversely, a P51, or FW190, or P38, or F6F, or F4U (although the F4U can, in the right hands turn you inside out...see TC or BigRat...two exceptional hawg drivers) will engage with the idea that it is a fight of Energy. In Energy fighting you use your A/C's power to convert your energy to either speed or altitude. Most times this means that you will enter the fight carrying a fair amount of speed or you enter it with a fair amount of altitude, and you will manage your speed and altitude to try to keep an advantage over your opponent.

So..Knife fighting is...you are both at the same altitude, you both have close to the same E and it really is a knife fight in a phone booth. Pick your ride carefully here.

So..E fighting is ... you may or may not be at the same altitude, you are both flying to use your E to get an advantage and hoping the other makes a mistake. Again, pick your AéC carefully here.

Or...You have an A/C more suited to a knife fight and your opponent has an A/C better suited to E fighting. Or Vice Versa

There are ways to deal with that...see your Trainers in the TA. They can help you...trust me, I used them alot.

Just a humble opinion.

Cheers,
RTR

[Shane]

Enough sidebar jibber-jabba!    I'd like a BBS option to have an ACL (Access Control List) to inhibit those folk that take threads into personal ego-ville.  Not every thread is about you dude.  Please respect that (you know who I mean).

I am hijacking this email BACK to its orginal intent and purpose.

Summary
Wading through the emails on point, P-51s cannot and should not fight turny and short range fighters at their-own-game.  This is generally unwise for the P-51 even if the opponent dislikes your choice in tactics.  However, It is possible to take on those sort of fighters without BnZ tactics but must be done using the 51s unique strengths and a large dose of real ACM.

Thanks all for the very potent input to put this perception error to rest.  

bah!    Get off my lawn!   I paid my dues in the pony. I was actually one of the relative few (same story today apparently) who would rack that pony around with anything from bnz, e-fighthing to tnb.  But I got tired of chasing other ponies and faster planes and went to the lala.  I was only in the pony because I got tired of chasing faster planes in a spit.   

This is a game with no real repercussions, so I'm not quite willing to buy into the "unwise" thing. Get "stupid," learn the plane, then refine yourself into a killer in a pony where you're capable no matter the situation you find yourself in.

[SkyRock]

I agree with Shane on this, I've flown the pony, and will fight in it, that goes for any plane, some I don't like to fight in, so I don't fly them...  The pony has it's ability, but it really doesn't matter what plane you're in, it's just that some planes you don't have as much time to make the kill... this is true with the pony, if you take to long to hit the angle and down the opponent, and he's in a spit, or a hurri, then it wont turn out well... there is almost always and angle to attack that will give you a shot at winning a fight, even if it's a pony against a spit, but if someone doesn't have confidence or knowledge of how to accomplish that AoA, then they will usually say, "I didn't turn with you because your plane out turns mine"... I know better, but some of the fellas arent there yet, so they get a pass.... some have been playing longer than me and still say crap like that...  I even heard a fella I was fighting the other night say, "This spit16 has no chance turning with your -1hog".... huh?  Geesh, at 3/4 throttle in a flat turn, a spit will walk circles around any hog...  I don't mind a pony pilot "falling" out of a fight and extending if he missed his best angle after a turn or two, it's exactly what I would do... but to see fellas doing the ole one pass runn, from alt, and excusing it by saying "it wont turn with your plane" is simply that... an excuse!

[Slade]

Shane, SkyRock good points sirs.

For me my behavior has changed in understanding the P-51 a bit better.  Last night I had a co-alt encounter with an N1k at 14k or so next to an enemy base.  I made it a point to not only take on the N1k but duel to the death.   All things being equal, I knew the N1k could out climb and out turn me.  It was a longer duel than expected but the result was that I beat the N1k without going below 10k.  In the past I was one of those BnZ then run ponies (I admit it).  In this encounter I found I was able to setup better angles, use my flaps to keep my nose near a firing solution longer than I thought possible against a superior turning bird.

I almost feel like changing my squad name banner to "this 51 does not run".  That is what I am committed to at this point with a P-51.

Thanks again for all the feedback in this thread. 

[katanaso]

Shane, SkyRock good points sirs.

For me my behavior has changed in understanding the P-51 a bit better.  Last night I had a co-alt encounter with an N1k at 14k or so next to an enemy base.  I made it a point to not only take on the N1k but duel to the death.   All things being equal, I knew the N1k could out climb and out turn me.  It was a longer duel than expected but the result was that I beat the N1k without going below 10k.  In the past I was one of those BnZ then run ponies (I admit it).  In this encounter I found I was able to setup better angles, use my flaps to keep my nose near a firing solution longer than I thought possible against a superior turning bird.

I almost feel like changing my squad name banner to "this 51 does not run".  That is what I am committed to at this point with a P-51.

Thanks again for all the feedback in this thread. 

Just keep at it and you'll learn what works and what doesn't.  Also, when you find that you have a tough time against a certain type of plane, fly that plane and learn what its strengths and weaknesses are.  Knowing the opponent's ride is a big part of the fight, but it's not mentioned much.

[SkyRock]

Slade keep at it, you tangling with the nik, live or die, is how you get good in the pony, obviously don't try to follow in a luftberry with one, but continuously aggressively attacking any and all planes you come across, live or die, is how you will learn the fastest on what to do, and what not to do... you will start to notice certain angles that give you a shot at winning each encounter no matter what plane it is... hell I've tangled with zeke's flown by good pilots in my -1hog and won, of course not all the time, but there are angles that give me a shot on a zeke... and luckily with a zeke, it doesn't take a whole lot of damage to down one...  but one thing is for certain, you won't find out how to beat 'em, if you don't fight 'em!  Good luck!

[ink]

Slade keep at it, you tangling with the nik, live or die, is how you get good in the pony, obviously don't try to follow in a luftberry with one, but continuously aggressively attacking any and all planes you come across, live or die, is how you will learn the fastest on what to do, and what not to do... you will start to notice certain angles that give you a shot at winning each encounter no matter what plane it is... hell I've tangled with zeke's flown by good pilots in my -1hog and won, of course not all the time, but there are angles that give me a shot on a zeke... and luckily with a zeke, it doesn't take a whole lot of damage to down one...  but one thing is for certain, you won't find out how to beat 'em, if you don't fight 'em!  Good luck!

"......you won't find out how to beat 'em, if you don't fight 'em"

great words of advice 

[SkyRock]

I just remembered who it was that was a beast in the pony...  DamnedRen... he was really good in a pony, actually he was good in alot of planes, but I fought him in ponies before and he knew how to dance that thing!  Is he still playing?