Author Topic: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152  (Read 5034 times)

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #150 on: January 27, 2013, 03:03:16 PM »
Issue was that engine power couldn't easily overcome a lack of lift at high alt. You can probably get a standard 190 up to 40k, you just won't be able to turn without stalling.

Because its easier to make a specialized high-alt fighter (or just cram a huge engine into a suitable design like the P-47), or just ignore anything over 30k in the Soviet's case, than it is to redesign all your aircraft to be optimized for high alt, you end up with designs like the 152.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #151 on: January 27, 2013, 03:05:53 PM »
That didn't quite come out as I intended it. Let me re-phrase that.


It wasn't designed to fight bombers way up there because most fights happened up there anyways, it was designed to be fast up there because it needed to be fast. P47's and P51's were doing 425+ up there and the current 109's/190's couldn't catch up to them. If you have enemies out-doing you in every category then how do you expect to win? The huge wings and massive engine weren't there because bombers were getting away, they're on the 152 because fighters were getting away and doing more damage. More lift and more speed = more chance of keeping up with the 51's and 47's.

Have you read anything about the Ta-152H?  It's quite clear you haven't from your posts because you are incorrect in all of your points.  Some of us, like Widewing (he's a well known author on WW2 aviation), have a keen interest in WW2 aircraft and have spent quite a bit of time researching and learning about these planes.


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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #152 on: January 27, 2013, 03:10:43 PM »
Have you read anything about the Ta-152H?  It's quite clear you haven't from your posts because you are incorrect in all of your points.  Some of us, like Widewing (he's a well known author on WW2 aviation), have a keen interest in WW2 aircraft and have spent quite a bit of time researching and learning about these planes.


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Everything I've looked at does call it a high alt interceptor...but specifically talks about bombers

Some people are getting the wording confused
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Offline Triton28

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #153 on: January 27, 2013, 03:44:09 PM »
Everything I've looked at does call it a high alt interceptor...but specifically talks about bombers

Some people are getting the wording confused

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Offline uptown

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #154 on: January 27, 2013, 05:54:24 PM »
Has anyone suggested manually draining the fuel tanks (aft tank, then wings) in order to stop this unrecoverable stall you speak of?
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Offline palef

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #155 on: January 27, 2013, 05:58:26 PM »
Has anyone suggested manually draining the fuel tanks (aft tank, then wings) in order to stop this unrecoverable stall you speak of?

Yes. Doesn't change behaviour.
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #156 on: January 27, 2013, 06:20:10 PM »
Has anyone suggested manually draining the fuel tanks (aft tank, then wings) in order to stop this unrecoverable stall you speak of?

I tried different fuel loads ending up with fuel only in the aft tank --- I did not see any difference in departure or recovery.
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Offline Tupac

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #157 on: February 05, 2013, 11:48:58 PM »
"It was once believed that an infinite number of monkeys, typing on an infinite number of keyboards, would eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare. However, with the advent of Internet messageboards we now know this is not the case."

Offline Stang

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #158 on: February 06, 2013, 12:21:48 AM »
I just keep re-reading that more lift = more speed...

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #159 on: February 06, 2013, 05:23:06 AM »
Did you read any German books about the purpose and development of the 152 or just American?

I think a paper hanging SOB burned them.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #160 on: February 07, 2013, 02:04:59 AM »
Challenge is so far off as to not be worthy of response, but...

Krusty, that's just plain stupid.

 Even P-47s taking hundreds of machine gun rounds and 10+ 20mm rounds were extreme rarities. No aircraft, fighter or bomber, could reliably take that kind of beating.

Also, mountings on single engine fighter were specifically geared towards hunting bombers. The 190 in particular is a good example. Notice the 109 doesn't get the 30mm till late in the game, when bombers become a big threat.

Consider that all designated night fighters and bomber killers had the 30mm.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong, on all 3 points.

First off, P-47s WERE repeatedly taking astounding amounts of damage, even blowing piston heads out of the engine, and still making it back to base. P-38s were rather rugged as well, and with the engine redundancy were able to make it home with 1 dead engine (someing most other fighters could not). Further, all the way from the first time the US planes encountered German planes, in the deserts of Africa, the P-40s were quite sturdy as well. They soaked up quite a lot of ammo. The few super-experten aces were able to land hits where they counted, but for the average german pilot, US planes were frustratingly tough to take down.

To follow along with this point, as early as 1942 Operation Barbarrosa began on the Soviet front. Here the super-rugged construction of Soviet aircraft began to be a major problem. Fighters weren't so resilient as were the bombers and attackers, which were armored. The IL-2s were literally armored bathtubs around the engine and crew compartment. Repeatedly IL-2s could soak up multiple attacks from German fighters and the Germans would break off after expending all ammo. Fw190s had a better time of it, but they still soaked up 20mm. If you look at the push and development of the 30mm Mk108 you will find it coincides with the increasing toughness of the single engine aircraft, NOT the skies-full-of-heavy-bombers, which weren't a problem at the time.

And the final issue for this increasing target toughness was the massive loss of the skilled aces and experts to train new pilots. Their schools weren't the same as US schools. Their green pilots passed the basic training and were sent to a new unit. The existing experts at that unit would then lead and train them in combat encounters, often the green pilots hanging back and watching as the expert flight leader engages a target or two. The problem is: What if there's no expert to lead them? They're basically cannon fodder. IF they saddle up on a target, their gunnery may only allow them to land a hit or two on target, and while they spend all their time fighting to finish a target off, others may come in behind them to shoot them down. The 30mm round was intended to allow finishing of fighters in as few rounds as possible so that those green pilots COULD land a hit or two and then pull off and look for the next target. No time wasted pursuing the target, getting fixated, and being shot down from behind. It was as much for the survival of their pilot force as it was for anything else. These aspects of combat were all known and appreciated by members of the Luftwaffe.

Your second point is utter nonsense! All mountings on single engine planes were for bombers? Uh... hum... Well I hate to break it to you, but the majority of single engine planes used their 30mm against other single engine planes. Or against twins. You could have a squadron with 1 gruppe of Fw190s heavily loaded to attack bombers, and the rest of the gruppe as escorts and fighter sweeps and ground attack, all of which could have the 30mm. The claim that any plane with 30mm was automatically intended to hunt bombers is disproven by all of my comments disproving your first point (and oh so many more).

The third point is quite wrong as well. In fact, 30mm was a rather BAD choice for night fighters. Most night fighters that used schrage muzik installations relied on MG/FFm upward firing 20mm cannons. Especially on planes like the 110G that would also attack with forward guns, the 30mm were often omitted entirely due to the blinding flash they caused -- it destroyed the pilot's ability to fly after his eyes adapted to the dark. Many flew with the under-side 20mms on 110Gs only, because the nose itself hit the flash and protected the pilot's night vision. For a good part of the night fighter forces, 30mm was NOT used. Some lesser-produced planes flew with 30mm, the He219 (though precious few of those ever saw combat) had the guns mounted well behind the pilot to prevent this blinding flash, but mostly the 110Gs and Ju88s were the main brunt of the night fighter force, and they ALL relied (almost entirely) on 20mm ammunition.



P.S. The Mk108 development was long and labored. There were many problems to overcome, though not as bad as some other guns in development. In early-to-mid 1944 they were ironed out and being pushed into EVERY airframe the Germans had in combat. It wasn't singled out for any sub-set of "bomber hunter" aircraft. It was put into every 109G variant and into every Fw190 D variant (though due to problems with the 190D development timetables most of these were scrapped in favor of ta152s which never showed up in time, which also had 30mm but weren't specifically bomber hunters).

A good example is the Fw190D series. It was lightened from the 190A8s and had less armaments to improve performance as a FIGHTER, against US fighters. And yet, still, it was being given hub-mounted mk108s and 2x 20mm in the wing roots in the next 190D variants (D-11s, D-12s, D-13s). These were not bomber hunter airframes. These were to be THE next variants of the Fw190 until the big Ta152 came along. They stopped the 190 line but the 152 suffered too many setbacks to fill the void. It would have filled this void with the same armament: a hub 30mm and a pair of 20mms. It was a direct replacement for a FIGHTER airframe, carrying the same weaponry as the FIGHTER it replaced.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 02:12:32 AM by Krusty »

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #161 on: February 08, 2013, 05:17:45 AM »
So, if we take Krusty's viewpoint and all fighters attack only the other fighters, goons, IL2's in ground support roles then the fighters are basically glory hounds seeking a headline in a paper, a paper that might make a few copies, until finally the bombers reduce your fighter paradise into rubble, the paper is burned, your families are all dead, but you got lots of medals and fame and glory. Typical correctness on the part of Krusty.

It pretty much comes down to your (and I don't mean Krusty) ability to work out what it takes to win a war.

You can reduce his fighters in number and pretty much push past his forward lines with air superiority.
Or you can reduce his ability to bomb your assets by attacking his bombers, which will eliminate the threat to your ability to wage war. Don't forget, America and the U.K. lost thousands of bomber crewmen.
You can bomb his assets, and reduce his ability to wage war (oh, not true for Germany).
So, you claim the Luftwaffe was really stupid and went for the fighters instead of bombers? Good luck with that approach.

Lancaster crews alone lost more than 55,000 men. Now you tell me exactly what shot them down if it wasn't fighters? Oh, I know there was flack. Flack accounted for the loss of about 50%, but that figure includes aircraft that made it home too damaged to ever fly again. It's a terrible price to pay, but just think of all the Lancs, B-17s, B-24s, B-25s, . . .

Sorry, Krusty. You are dead wrong. The number one duty of a fighter pilot in war time is to knock down the heavies. You can take what you want away from the war, but that reality is unchanged.
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Offline save

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #162 on: February 08, 2013, 07:04:53 AM »
At later stage of the war, German Luftwaffe  used 'Sturmgruppen' with extra armoured fw190a's  to attack bombers. they where escorted by the 'Höhen' 109s against allied fighters.

At the point when  TA152 where deployed, they already had the best weapon against buffs : the R4M rocket. used from the ME-262 platform.

I do not know if TA152 had any buff kills, but I know they had fighter kills.



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Offline kilo2

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #163 on: February 08, 2013, 08:50:11 AM »
According to Willi Reschkes book JG 301/302 "Wild Sau"

Until the missions on 2 March 45 152s were in "heavy group" attack bombers. On march second they were given an escort mission. After that they continued escort or "free hunting" as they began to run out of parts.

Jupp Keil got at least 1 b-17 in it.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 08:52:24 AM by kilo2 »
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #164 on: February 08, 2013, 09:05:15 AM »
A lot of geniuses in this thread, no room for me.
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