Author Topic: Requesting Two New Bombers  (Read 2826 times)

Offline shoresroad

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Requesting Two New Bombers
« on: February 08, 2013, 08:06:13 PM »
I'm new to AH and one of my favorite parts of the game are the bombers.

I would really like to see the He 111 and the Do 17 added to the game.  I think they are similar in performance, load, etc to the Ju 88, but sure would be fun to fly them and shoot them down!  They are so much a visual part of WWII.

Great game!

Thanks  :cool:
"Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant."
Manfred von Richthofen

Offline Volron

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2013, 01:17:49 AM »
There is only one thing I'm gonna say, +1 for them both! :x
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Wow I find it hard to believe it has been almost 38 days since our last path. We should have release another 38 versions by now  :bhead
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Offline Seadog36

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2013, 01:49:06 AM »
I'm new to AH and one of my favorite parts of the game are the bombers.

I would really like to see the He 111 and the Do 17 added to the game.  I think they are similar in performance, load, etc to the Ju 88, but sure would be fun to fly them and shoot them down!  They are so much a visual part of WWII.

Great game!

Thanks  :cool:

He 111 is an old request~ it would be really cool for all the Battle of Britain and Barbarossa events +1

Offline Karnak

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2013, 08:16:48 AM »
He111, sure, but the Do17Z should be way down the list of aircraft to be added.  It was already being phased out by the time of the Battle of Britain and Barbarossa was its swan song.  Because we have the Ju88A-4 even the He111 should be below things like the Do217, Il-4, Ju188, Pe-2, SM.79-II and Tu-2 (pick two Russian, one German and one Italian from that list) as the Ju88A-4 is, more or less, an adequate stand in for the He111.
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2013, 09:41:36 AM »
Do 17 unnecessary.

He 111 +32546843513564
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Offline Volron

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2013, 10:10:09 AM »
He111, sure, but the Do17Z should be way down the list of aircraft to be added.  It was already being phased out by the time of the Battle of Britain and Barbarossa was its swan song.  Because we have the Ju88A-4 even the He111 should be below things like the Do217, Il-4, Ju188, Pe-2, SM.79-II and Tu-2 (pick two Russian, one German and one Italian from that list) as the Ju88A-4 is, more or less, an adequate stand in for the He111.

Russian: Il-4 Tu-2
German: Do-217
Italian: You only listed one. :lol  What about the CANT Z.1007 Alcione?
Quote from: hitech
Wow I find it hard to believe it has been almost 38 days since our last path. We should have release another 38 versions by now  :bhead
HiTech
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Quote from: Jolly
What on Earth makes you think that i said that sir?!
My guess would be scotch.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2013, 10:42:01 AM »
Italian: You only listed one. :lol  What about the CANT Z.1007 Alcione?
Thought about listing it, but the SM.79-II is so much more iconic that it is really the only choice for the first Italian bomber to be added.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2013, 09:21:58 PM »
He111, sure, but the Do17Z should be way down the list of aircraft to be added.  It was already being phased out by the time of the Battle of Britain and Barbarossa was its swan song.  Because we have the Ju88A-4 even the He111 should be below things like the Do217, Il-4, Ju188, Pe-2, SM.79-II and Tu-2 (pick two Russian, one German and one Italian from that list) as the Ju88A-4 is, more or less, an adequate stand in for the He111.

Poppycock!

The Ju88A-4 is the post-BOB variant. It has longer wings for more lift, better lift loading, better defensive firepower, adn more horsepower (meaning better top speed and better climb) than the Ju-88A-1 which saw service in the BOB.

Further, the Ju88 was the NEWER of the two bombers serving in the BOB, and the He111 was far more numerous, and far more representative.

EDIT: Put it this way: Hurricanes can't catch the Ju88 we have whenever we run BOB scenarios. Spits can barely, if they don't have to jink more than 10 degrees at a time to evade escorts. If at any time you are behind our in-game Ju88A-4 in a BOB scenario you're screwed. countless FSOs, scenarios, and even AvA (back when it was CT) have proven this time and again. We need the slower, lesser defended planes. Otherwise it's a mockery of the real BOB aircraft whenever we run that setup.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 09:24:20 PM by Krusty »

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2013, 11:47:31 PM »
The He111 makes the most sense.  Right behind that the IL-4 or Tu-2 gets the nod.  Then... the Wellington.   :aok
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline shoresroad

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2013, 02:30:51 AM »
But the Do 17 looks cool.  That's gotta count for something  :cool:
"Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant."
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Offline Volron

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2013, 03:32:53 AM »
But the Do 17 looks cool.  That's gotta count for something  :cool:

Oh it does. :)  But I have to side with Karnak.  Go with the 217 if you want the Dornier.  You get the nice look of a Dornier, but with an added bonus of having a better chance in the MA. :aok

The questions in regards to the He-111 would be; Would we get 2 variants of her (one for BoB and another that would stand somewhat of a chance in the MA)?  If not, then which variant would cover a good chuck?  H-6 maybe?  But probably the H-4? :headscratch:
Quote from: hitech
Wow I find it hard to believe it has been almost 38 days since our last path. We should have release another 38 versions by now  :bhead
HiTech
Quote from: Pyro
Quote from: Jolly
What on Earth makes you think that i said that sir?!
My guess would be scotch.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2013, 08:25:02 AM »
Poppycock!

The Ju88A-4 is the post-BOB variant. It has longer wings for more lift, better lift loading, better defensive firepower, adn more horsepower (meaning better top speed and better climb) than the Ju-88A-1 which saw service in the BOB.

Further, the Ju88 was the NEWER of the two bombers serving in the BOB, and the He111 was far more numerous, and far more representative.

EDIT: Put it this way: Hurricanes can't catch the Ju88 we have whenever we run BOB scenarios. Spits can barely, if they don't have to jink more than 10 degrees at a time to evade escorts. If at any time you are behind our in-game Ju88A-4 in a BOB scenario you're screwed. countless FSOs, scenarios, and even AvA (back when it was CT) have proven this time and again. We need the slower, lesser defended planes. Otherwise it's a mockery of the real BOB aircraft whenever we run that setup.
The Ju88A-4 is a whopping 10mph faster than the He111 will be in AH.  It makes little difference as long as bombers all fly at 100% power 100% of the time.  Armamentwise it is scarcely better, only having one additional gun in the ventral position.  Lift loading doesn't really matter, more powerful engines only produce a top speed of about 10mph faster.

In short, you are wildly exaggerating the qualitative difference between the Ju88A-4 and, say, the He111H-6.  We don't even have an approximate substitution for the Il-4, Pe-2, Tu-2, Do217, Ju188 or SM.79-II.

The He111 brings nothing to AH other than a new graphic.  Hyperventilating over small differences between the He111 and the Ju88A-4 is no different than demanding the Halifax be added because it only carried 13,500lbs and had a single .303 in the nose and a quad .303 in the tail compared to our Lancaster III's 14,000lbs, two .303s in the nose and two .50s in the tail.

All that aside, if the He111 proved to be that much slower in AH all that would happen is that it wouldn't get used in BoB settings as the players would simply use the Ju88A-4s.  Obviously this is only in reference to free for all arenas.  Organized events can force players into unpopular aircraft.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 08:27:24 AM by Karnak »
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2013, 05:09:15 PM »
Separating the A-1 from the A-4:

Armament on the Ju-88A-1 was entirely of MG15 in makeup, with 3 or 4 installed. There was only the one in the ventral bay. The Ju88A-4 carried 3x MG81 guns and a MG81 Z "twin" in the ventral gondola. The MG15 fired only at a peak of 1000 rounds per minute, but the MG81 fired upwards of 1500 rounds per minute. The MG81Z fired 3000 rounds per minute! Some sources say as much as 3200 rounds per minute. Not pertinent to AH just yet, MG15s were limited to 75-rd drum magazines, whereas MG81s were belt-fed in continuous ammo belts.

The A-1 had a max bombload of 2500kg, internal or external. It didn't have the wheel struts to take the heavier loads of the A-4 variant. I believe the A-1 only had 1 inboard ETC250 bombrack under each wing, where the A-4 has 2 under each. The A-1 had many problems with bombload restrictions due to the ranges it needed to fly in the BOB. It often had small bombloads of 1000kg or 500kg so that it could use half of the bombbay storage for an extra fuel tank. Much like our B-17 it COULD carry heavier loads, but only at much shorter ranges. Maximum bomb load limited its range to 700 miles or so, which was barely more than the spitfires and bf109Es of the time. The A-4 could carry more fuel and more bombload, making it an overall more effective bomber.

Part of this was due to the more powerful engines, each about 200hp stronger (400 total) than the A-1's engines. This allowed for better armor plating in the bombers, better fuel loads, better bomb loads, and other general performance and handling benefits. However, these engines weren't available in any real quantities until early 1941 (after the BOB's general time frame). This extra horsepower alone allowed an increase in the gross weight of 3,700 lbs, and a top speed increase across the board of 15mph. This boost in speed came along with an increase in bombload, AND armor plates fitted on the sides of the cockpit and the ventral gondola, which the A-1 lacked.

I should remind you that our hurr1 and our ju88a4 top speeds differ only by 20mph as it is. YES, it is a problem that AH doesn't limit bombers' speeds/engine settings a bit more, but going from the ju88a4 we have to a ju88a1 from the proper era would almost DOUBLE the performance gap of our pursuing hurricanes. The top speed of the A-1 when it was EMPTY was 280mph. Our A-4 does 290 WITH an internal bombload. Cruising speed was about 220mph (on the A-1), though that won't mean much for the Aces High crowd.

The A-1 had fabric covered ailerons of a free-floating type for less effective control surfaces and worse maneuverability. It had an unbalanced rudder as well, which was redesigned to have a balanced top in the A-4. That reduces forces required to achieve certain rudder positions and generally makes a control surface more responsive. The A-4, along with its extended wings, redesigned the ailerons to be metal covered and of a more modern design (similar to what you might think a WW2 plane had). The A-1 handling was rather unsatisfactory to most pilots, and when the A-4 came around they marvelled at how light and nimble the controls were. The A-4 had a wingspan of 65 feet 7.5 inches, which was a full 7 feet more than the A-1 with 58 feet 6 inches. The combination of extra wing area, redesigned control surfaces, much more power, altogether changed the airframe from a poor one to a great one. It wasn't until the A-4 that thoughts of making this airframe into a heavy fighter or night fighter began. The A-1 was far worse in most aspects of maneuvering.

An example of the aileron differences:


Another aspect is that the A-1 was much more fragile. It had to be very careful with weight loadings before takeoffs. It had to be balanced/loaded perfectly. More so than most planes, even other German ones. It could NOT dive unless it was done very carefully and specifically. It structurally wasn't as capable (G forces and whatnot) as the A-4 was. Along with the lack of armor plates around the crew compartment, this means that IF we had a Ju88A-1 in our BOB scenarios, when a hurricane caught up to it and shot at it, it would go down in flames (or in pieces) much more quickly.

The Ju88A-1 was undergoing inprovements during the BOB and these were being incorporated into the A-5 and A-4 variants. Whereas a few planes at the Ju88A-4 standard were serving during the end of the BOB they were field modifications or depot-level conversions most likely. The Ju88A-4s combat debut was really the invasion of Soviet Russia in 1941. The A-4 (and the subvariants that were almost identical to the A-4 but with specific differences like life rafts or desert gear) was the most-produced Ju88 variant in the war.... It just isn't representative of the Battle of Britain or anything much before June 1941.

It is NOT just a claim that it was slower. Though, that is a big part of it. It was almost an entirely different plane. One might as well say "the 109E is slower than the 109F" and leave it at that. They are worlds apart in overal capability and performance, as well as in exterior shape. Their payloads, ranges, and weapons are different. Their roll rates, climb rates, dive rates are all different.


And THAT, my dear friends, is why the Ju88A-1 would be a major benefit to our BOB scenarios/setups, as compared to the Ju88A-4 we currently have. Thank you for reading.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 05:30:22 PM by Krusty »

Offline shoresroad

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2013, 09:55:06 PM »
Oh it does. :)  But I have to side with Karnak.  Go with the 217 if you want the Dornier.  You get the nice look of a Dornier, but with an added bonus of having a better chance in the MA. :aok

+1...The Do 217 would be a better idea yet  :pray   

The questions in regards to the He-111 would be; Would we get 2 variants of her (one for BoB and another that would stand somewhat of a chance in the MA)?  If not, then which variant would cover a good chunk?  H-6 maybe?  But probably the H-4? :headscratch:

The He-111 is just so much a part of WWII Germany it would be a great add also in one form or another.  Probably the version most survivable in the MA would be best.
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Offline Volron

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2013, 01:38:21 AM »
The He-111 is just so much a part of WWII Germany it would be a great add also in one form or another.  Probably the version most survivable in the MA would be best.

From a poor source (wiki), this is for the H-6:

    up to 7 × 7.92 mm MG 15 or MG 81 machine guns, (2 in the nose, 1 in the dorsal, 2 in the side, 2 in the ventral) some of them replaced or augmented by
    1 × 20 mm MG FF cannon (central nose mount or forward ventral position)
    1 × 13 mm MG 131 machine gun (mounted dorsal and/or ventral rear positions)

If we are going to get one that seems to cover a decent gap, the H-6 seems to do well, with the ability to swap out some of the defensive guns for the MA.  It can be used in EW events, but would have the option for the heavier guns for the MA.  Much more information required however. :headscratch:
Quote from: hitech
Wow I find it hard to believe it has been almost 38 days since our last path. We should have release another 38 versions by now  :bhead
HiTech
Quote from: Pyro
Quote from: Jolly
What on Earth makes you think that i said that sir?!
My guess would be scotch.