Question about empty weight and takeoff weight

[Torquila]

When looking at the Wikipedia of the me-410, I noticed its max takeoff weight was:

"Max. takeoff weight: 10,760 kg (23,721 lb)"

Yet I can fully equip it to take 25,549 lbs.

What does this mean?

Is this normal in AH?

And is the empty weight terminology correct? Cause it says something stupid like:

 "Empty weight: 6,150 kg (13,558 lb)"

Yet, even with 25% fuel, no load and emptying all guns, it doesn't even come close (not less then around 19-20k).

Does that mean, the remote turret takes up most of that that extra weight?

Thanks.

PS: I found other sites quoting higher values, and someone quoting even lower values. There were only 2 different types of engines used; so as well: What is with the 3 different weights?

[SmokinLoon]

First, be careful of what you read on Wiki.  Always try and have a hard print source to follow up and check the data.  Original sources are best (such as an actual Me410 operator's manual or actual Luftwaffe manuals, etc).  

Second, the "test" weight or recorded weight may not being the data quoted.  Remember that the roles of aircraft, the gun packages, and ordnance load outs all changed after the aircraft were put in to service.  So in other words do not panic, it is normal.  Sometime take a look at the speed and climb charts of different aircraft in AH (while in the hanger), then load up your plane with a typical load out and see how that weight compared to the weight of the planes used to compile the speed and climb stats.  Rarely do they match.  HTC goes to great length to get their aircraft models accurate, I have faith in how they model the weight(s) of the aircraft.

What is real fun is to just see the differences in what an aircraft weighs with the different gun and ord packages.  No plane shows that better than the Me410.  Load it down with fuel and the 50mm gun, then compare it to nothing but the base guns (quad 13mm and a pair of 20mm), and %50 fuel and see how many thousands of lbs of weight you save (hint: the 50mm gun weighs over 1400 lbs by itself, add in another %50 fuel and DT's and it gets fat real quick).  

[Tank-Ace]

If wiki is within visual range of accurate, I find it a bit unlikely that differing radio equipment, bomb shackles, wiring, etc. would push the minimum weight up by over 4,000lbs.

How much does a quarter tank of gas, and the ammunition weigh? Also remember to count pilot and gunner weight (say, 350lbs).

Does that bring it closer to the wiki weight?


Its possible HTC has it a tad too heavy, although unlikely. And wiki could be using a very optimistic estimate.

[SmokinLoon]

It doesn't matter WHAT adds the weight.  All that matters is that when players are testing the aircraft in question to get the weight of the aircraft in question as close to the listed weight on the chart as possible.  The best way to do that is to load it up with the different options (fuel %, ammo packages, guns, ord, etc), record each weight, then up the plane as accurate and as close as can be to the weight on the charts and THEN compare.  If in the testing some goofy numbers arise for whatever reason be sure and pass the info along to HTC using the bug forums.

When the Mossi FB Mk IV was remodeled there was a lot of debate on the speed and climb of the Mossi FB Mk IV.  Which chart did the RAF use, which weight did JTCuse, what external apparatus was on the plane when it was tested (DT's? Bombs?), and at what altitude was it tested at???  I think I saw about 8 different actual RAF charts presented in one of the threads.  Ultimately, HTC adjusted the Mossi to a faster climb rate based on that thread (or so it appeared anyways).

FWIW, in the case of the Mossi FB Mk IV the weight is not as much of an issue as is the drag.  The Mossi can fly faster with 2 bombs only in the bomb bay vs 2 bombs only on the wings.  Likewise, the Mossi gains about 2 MPH once the bomb bay ord is gone.  The Mossi gains quite a bit more once the wing bombs are gone.  The rockets rails are the worst source of drag, but the 8 rockets offer 1495 lbs of damage, so there is a trade off.
     

[Tank-Ace]

You kinda missed my point. I'm saying that it's a bit unlikely that both 'empty' weights are accurate, even accounting for various crap adding weight between the models used for the numbers.

Either one of them is WAY off, or both are off by a fair-ish bit.

If I had to bet, wiki is using a stripped down, no armament, radio, etc. number, and HTC's source didn't specify what 'empty' was, and they unknowingly calculated weight for twice the guns, or something of the sort.

[Krusty]

Ask yourself "what is EMPTY" and you'll come closer to the reason. Empty weight did NOT include:

pilot
fuel
oil (not fuel)
radiator liquid
ammo
guns (not their mounts, often just the guns themselves)

and many more things.

No, the FDL gun system didn't weight 4000 lbs.

You can't match an "empty" weight by simply draining fuel in AH. You still have all those other things onboard. You can't get to that weight ever, and have the plane fly.

As for the first part of your question, ask what "maximum" is... Because in this game you can mix and match combinations that never were mixed or matched in real life. Often the B-29 could not carry "full fuel" with many bombloads. It had to limit its fuel so that with bombs AND fuel it never passed a certain weight. In AH you can actually pass that max takeoff weight by mixing and matching improperly.

On the 410 that would most likely be full fuel, drop tanks, and either the BK5 or 2x250kg bombs. Some combination like that would probably yield the most weight in-game. That doesn't mean it flew like that in reality. Realistically, if it were ever to be so overloaded something would be removed (mainly: fuel) to reduce it back to normal.

[SmokinLoon]

You kinda missed my point. I'm saying that it's a bit unlikely that both 'empty' weights are accurate, even accounting for various crap adding weight between the models used for the numbers.

Either one of them is WAY off, or both are off by a fair-ish bit.

If I had to bet, wiki is using a stripped down, no armament, radio, etc. number, and HTC's source didn't specify what 'empty' was, and they unknowingly calculated weight for twice the guns, or something of the sort.

My bad.  I thought you were comparing HTC's 20,000 lbs and the read deal 20,000 lbs as being not the same.    

[Krusty]

One further thing, "takeoff weight" wasn't always maximum weight for Luftwaffe aircraft. It was more like typical weight, sometimes. It really depends on the source.

Mushroom publications says Me410A empty weight is 6700kg, takeoff is 11,300kg
Squadron Signal says empty 6146kg and max 10,659kg

Funny thing is, both could be technically correct, for different subvariants and different definitions of what "empty" is... Or one could be incorrect.

Further muddying the waters is J.R. Smith's "Profile" series listing 410A-1/U2 empty as 13,550lbs (6159kg) and loaded as 23,500 (10,681kg).

You just need to do a bit more research before jumping to the wrong conclussion about the 410's weight, is all. For example, here is a page from 1943 that's listing at least some of the weights. Based on whether it was an A-1, A-2, or A-3 the empty weight increased on this list:

[Karnak]

Not sure about the Me410, but for the Mosquito the wartime maximum and the peacetime official maximum were two different numbers.

[bozon]

Not sure about the Me410, but for the Mosquito the wartime maximum and the peacetime official maximum were two different numbers.

One reason may be that maximum weight is the maximum allowed, not the maximum possible. I suspect that for multi-engine planes, the max T/O weight was determined by the band of critical speeds at which an engine loss would be fatal. War time safety margins were likely smaller than in peace time.

[Karnak]

One reason may be that maximum weight is the maximum allowed, not the maximum possible. I suspect that for multi-engine planes, the max T/O weight was determined by the band of critical speeds at which an engine loss would be fatal. War time safety margins were likely smaller than in peace time.

Yup.  That was my point.  What the pilots handbook says is one thing, the safe thing, what the plane can actually do is often something else.

[Torquila]

lol krusty, look at that addition mistake in the a-1 box!! XD

[icepac]

Is it OEW or MEW in aces high?

[Torquila]

I also see 8 unique fuel tanks where only 4 exist in-game. Were they just cobbled together?

I assume the "additional equipment" weight of 1171 included the motor systems and electronics for the turret and gunsite stabalization system?

[Karnak]

I also see 8 unique fuel tanks where only 4 exist in-game. Were they just cobbled together?

I assume the "additional equipment" weight of 1171 included the motor systems and electronics for the turret and gunsite stabalization system?

Fuel tanks in AH are frequently combined.  As an example, the Mosquito's nine fuel tanks are reduced to five in AH.