Boston Marathon explosions

[bj229r]

Odd that it only starts in 1980, there were a crapload in the 60's/early 70's....wonder if the political affiliations of the bombers have anything to do with that

[Mickey1992]

I am convinced that some judiciously placed bomb sniffing canines patrolling key points along the route (start and finish lines being the first places that come to mind) could have saved life and limb.

From what I have read there were multiple canine bomb units at the event.  Specifically the finish line area was swept twice during the race by a canine bomb unit.

[VonMessa]

From what I have read there were multiple canine bomb units at the event.  Specifically the finish line area was swept twice during the race by a canine bomb unit.

If that is the case and the bombs were made from conventional materials, the sweeps weren't often/thorough enough or the handlers weren't paying attention to the dogs. 

[Gman]

Regarding security comments, Vonmessa, did you see how many police where present just in the immediate explosion areas?  I counted 8 uniformed cops that were there within 10 seconds of the blast, on the video on uTube that is about 30 yards from the explosion.  How much more security can you have?  There were cops everywhere, literally every 20 yards along that part of the route by the looks of the video.  Also, many people today are saying that prior to the bombings there was a HUGE police presence, with many dogs, so many, that people were asking if some sort of event had happened, to which the police were replying "it's a drill" - all this prior to the explosions.  I've read this on many news sites today.

So, if that actually turns out to be fact, and not just internet speak, there would have been such a huge police presence that people took notice and asked them what was up.  And even with that huge presence, the person responsible for the bombings slipped in and achieved his objectives, at least partially.   Either way, from the video I've seen alone, there was a lot of uniformed police, and who knows how many plainclothes units around.

Scary to consider, that with an area saturated with law enforcement, a person can STILL get in and create havoc.  Like JFK said, all you have to do is be willing to trade your life for theirs, and anyone can kill him (the President).  Well, apparently it goes further, and all you have to do is be able to build small bombs, and you can kill at will in a country with hugely impressive security system/police force/FBI/whatever, and even survive to do it again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=046MuD1pYJg

At risk of a ban over posting something, I want you to see that video.  I was viewer number 124, now there is 9 million views a day later.  It's not really a "NSFW" video, you can't really get a look at the hurt people thank god, but you do get a good look at the blast and the response right after it.  Look at around 50 seconds after the blast, there is dozens of cops if you freeze frame and count, and even just after the initial blast, you can see one tall cop with his sidearm out, and about 4 o 5 others (top of their heads) within just seconds of the blast.  I don't think anyone can fault the powers that be with having a lack of law enforcement in the vicinity.  I just think that they weren't in an optimal location to prevent something like this - they were there mainly to protect the runners by the look of their deployment, not watch the crowd for possible terrorism.

I guess I have my perspective on this, having been in convoys hit almost daily for a long period of time, and having the building I slept in directly bombed twice.  Securing against this type of thing is NOT easy.  We had the Ghurka's protecting our building once, and you've never met meaner or more thorough guards anywhere, I guarantee it.  Bombs still went off.  Triple Canopy had Delta and Devgru living in their building in Iraq when the company first began ops inside Iraq.  That building still got hit, with the best, the absolute VERY best in the world occupying and guarding it.

There is no defense, no absolute way to stop this, and that's the horror of it IMO.  No amount of law enforcement, security, anything can prevent a determined attacker with an IQ over 100.  Get a group of dedicated guys acting together...well, then you get Afghanistan/Iraq type situations, with this happening daily in multiple locations.  I pray it doesn't happen over here.

edit

If that is the case and the bombs were made from conventional materials, the sweeps weren't often/thorough enough or the handlers weren't paying attention to the dogs.

As I said, they looked to be paying particular attention to the runners by my observation of how they were deployed.  You are likely right - even with the huge dog presence, the bombs could have been missed by sloppy work/training, or they more likely were just dropped and then detonated quickly in order to exploit gaps in the security that whoever did this observed.  As I've said, it really isn't all that hard to do, and if the best in the world can get hit, anybody can.

[VonMessa]

Regarding security comments, Vonmessa, did you see how many police where present just in the immediate explosion areas?  I counted 8 uniformed cops that were there within 10 seconds of the blast, on the video on uTube that is about 30 yards from the explosion.  How much more security can you have?  There were cops everywhere, literally every 20 yards along that part of the route by the looks of the video.  Also, many people today are saying that prior to the bombings there was a HUGE police presence, with many dogs, so many, that people were asking if some sort of event had happened, to which the police were replying "it's a drill" - all this prior to the explosions.  I've read this on many news sites today.

So, if that actually turns out to be fact, and not just internet speak, there would have been such a huge police presence that people took notice and asked them what was up.  And even with that huge presence, the person responsible for the bombings slipped in and achieved his objectives, at least partially.   Either way, from the video I've seen alone, there was a lot of uniformed police, and who knows how many plainclothes units around.

Scary to consider, that with an area saturated with law enforcement, a person can STILL get in and create havoc.  Like JFK said, all you have to do is be willing to trade your life for theirs, and anyone can kill him (the President).  Well, apparently it goes further, and all you have to do is be able to build small bombs, and you can kill at will in a country with hugely impressive security system/police force/FBI/whatever, and even survive to do it again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=046MuD1pYJg

At risk of a ban over posting something, I want you to see that video.  I was viewer number 124, now there is 9 million views a day later.  It's not really a "NSFW" video, you can't really get a look at the hurt people thank god, but you do get a good look at the blast and the response right after it.  Look at around 50 seconds after the blast, there is dozens of cops if you freeze frame and count, and even just after the initial blast, you can see one tall cop with his sidearm out, and about 4 o 5 others (top of their heads) within just seconds of the blast.  I don't think anyone can fault the powers that be with having a lack of law enforcement in the vicinity.  I just think that they weren't in an optimal location to prevent something like this - they were there mainly to protect the runners by the look of their deployment, not watch the crowd for possible terrorism.

I guess I have my perspective on this, having been in convoys hit almost daily for a long period of time, and having the building I slept in directly bombed twice.  Securing against this type of thing is NOT easy.  We had the Ghurka's protecting our building once, and you've never met meaner or more thorough guards anywhere, I guarantee it.  Bombs still went off.  Triple Canopy had Delta and Devgru living in their building in Iraq when the company first began ops inside Iraq.  That building still got hit, with the best, the absolute VERY best in the world occupying and guarding it.

There is no defense, no absolute way to stop this, and that's the horror of it IMO.  No amount of law enforcement, security, anything can prevent a determined attacker with an IQ over 100.  Get a group of dedicated guys acting together...well, then you get Afghanistan/Iraq type situations, with this happening daily in multiple locations.  I pray it doesn't happen over here.

edit
As I said, they looked to be paying particular attention to the runners by my observation of how they were deployed.  You are likely right - even with the huge dog presence, the bombs could have been missed by sloppy work/training, or they more likely were just dropped and then detonated quickly in order to exploit gaps in the security that whoever did this observed.  As I've said, it really isn't all that hard to do, and if the best in the world can get hit, anybody can.

I agree that there was a lot of security.

I hope you agree that there is a distinct difference between a lot of security and properly deployed security.

I also agree that securing against this type of thing is not easy. 

I would like to add that I think civilian law-enforcement officers do not get the training that they should for these types of situations.

Their response was incredible, swift and commendable.

I refuse to accept or admit that this is unstoppable.  It is what gives them their control and is exactly what terrorists want. 

They want folks to be afraid of them.

[Triton28]

Prayers to the victims and their families.  These sorts of things are life altering for everyone.  It's very sad, indeed.

I refuse to accept or admit that this is unstoppable.  It is what gives them their control and is exactly what terrorists want. 

You're right, fear is where they gain power.   But Gman is also right... you cannot stop any attack that is limited only by imagination.  The best we can do defensively is try to limit organization capacity and remain vigilant.  The scary part of this attack is that it seems the organizational level of the attackers was pretty small given that there apparently was no 'chatter' about this beforehand.  I'm sure some terrorist somewhere already sat down and figured the best odds he has to kill Americans in America is to limit the number of people and communication needed to carry out an attack, but to me it's a new concept.

 

[GScholz]

The only way to defeat terrorism is not being afraid. Not change the way you live. To the people who are affected directly each terrorist event is a huge tragedy. However, to the public as a whole terrorism is an almost negligible health risk.

[VonMessa]

The only way to defeat terrorism is not being afraid. Not change the way you live. To the people who are affected directly each terrorist event is a huge tragedy. However, to the public as a whole terrorism is an almost negligible health risk.

That says a mouthful.

I understand that there is not a 100% fool-proof method for stopping this kind of thing.

Humans are fallible.  Folks willing to commit these kinds of acts are in-tune to the mistakes that most are likely to make and exploit them.

[Gman]

Agree with a lot of that VonMessa, just not all.

I do agree with Gsholz completely, I just think that a certain level of acceptance is required before you can truly go about fighting this type of attack.  There are a lot of ways to combat it, from techno wizbang jamming systems that go after radio detonators, to more vigilant human assets - the list is endless.  Those of us on defense vs IED's are at a huge disadvantage obviously, the enemy having surprise completely in his favor, which is an advantage that is impossible to counter.  I put it to you this way Von - if you were to play blue team, and to go back to the marathon, and deploy security teams how you felt would make this bombing impossible, I guarantee me playing as red team would be able to find a way to exploit some gap, and make it happen.  Part of my job was having to do precisely this in the hottest place on earth in terms of these things going off, to attempt to find a way to prevent it.  I give you the tens of thousands of explosions that have happened despite the efforts of thousands of people, people better at it even than I am, in tying to stop it.  

It can't be stopped.

That doesn't mean you don't fight back, or attempt to stop it, you just have to accept that you'll never completely win or succeed.  Otherwise, insanity is on the other side of that door.   I agree completely that we've gotten complacent, particularly the higher end L/E forces like the FBI, RCMP up here, etc.  That goes with the times (not going to get political at all).  This makes the enemies job far easier, and you're absolutely right IMO, more can and should be done in terms of training.  But no amount of training, vigilance, numbers, whatever, can ever possibly stop it, or guarantee safety.  It's the price we pay to live the way we do, and when you've been close to an explosion like this one in Boston, and lost people, family, friends, co workers...it's a big price to pay, but we pay it, and continue to pay it. 

[RedBull1]

Regarding security comments, Vonmessa, did you see how many police where present just in the immediate explosion areas?  I counted 8 uniformed cops that were there within 10 seconds of the blast, on the video on uTube that is about 30 yards from the explosion.  How much more security can you have?  There were cops everywhere, literally every 20 yards along that part of the route by the looks of the video.  Also, many people today are saying that prior to the bombings there was a HUGE police presence, with many dogs, so many, that people were asking if some sort of event had happened, to which the police were replying "it's a drill" - all this prior to the explosions.  I've read this on many news sites today.

So, if that actually turns out to be fact, and not just internet speak, there would have been such a huge police presence that people took notice and asked them what was up.  And even with that huge presence, the person responsible for the bombings slipped in and achieved his objectives, at least partially.   Either way, from the video I've seen alone, there was a lot of uniformed police, and who knows how many plainclothes units around.

Scary to consider, that with an area saturated with law enforcement, a person can STILL get in and create havoc.  Like JFK said, all you have to do is be willing to trade your life for theirs, and anyone can kill him (the President).  Well, apparently it goes further, and all you have to do is be able to build small bombs, and you can kill at will in a country with hugely impressive security system/police force/FBI/whatever, and even survive to do it again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=046MuD1pYJg

At risk of a ban over posting something, I want you to see that video.  I was viewer number 124, now there is 9 million views a day later.  It's not really a "NSFW" video, you can't really get a look at the hurt people thank god, but you do get a good look at the blast and the response right after it.  Look at around 50 seconds after the blast, there is dozens of cops if you freeze frame and count, and even just after the initial blast, you can see one tall cop with his sidearm out, and about 4 o 5 others (top of their heads) within just seconds of the blast.  I don't think anyone can fault the powers that be with having a lack of law enforcement in the vicinity.  I just think that they weren't in an optimal location to prevent something like this - they were there mainly to protect the runners by the look of their deployment, not watch the crowd for possible terrorism.

I guess I have my perspective on this, having been in convoys hit almost daily for a long period of time, and having the building I slept in directly bombed twice.  Securing against this type of thing is NOT easy.  We had the Ghurka's protecting our building once, and you've never met meaner or more thorough guards anywhere, I guarantee it.  Bombs still went off.  Triple Canopy had Delta and Devgru living in their building in Iraq when the company first began ops inside Iraq.  That building still got hit, with the best, the absolute VERY best in the world occupying and guarding it.

There is no defense, no absolute way to stop this, and that's the horror of it IMO.  No amount of law enforcement, security, anything can prevent a determined attacker with an IQ over 100.  Get a group of dedicated guys acting together...well, then you get Afghanistan/Iraq type situations, with this happening daily in multiple locations.  I pray it doesn't happen over here.

edit
As I said, they looked to be paying particular attention to the runners by my observation of how they were deployed.  You are likely right - even with the huge dog presence, the bombs could have been missed by sloppy work/training, or they more likely were just dropped and then detonated quickly in order to exploit gaps in the security that whoever did this observed.  As I've said, it really isn't all that hard to do, and if the best in the world can get hit, anybody can.

This ^

Also, thanks for your service tundra

[Gman]

One last thing, it's easy to criticize the L/E deployments in hindsight.  If something had targeted the runners, we would be saying how great it was that the defenses were focused on the them, as they appeared to be, and how the foresight of the authorities was great to have done it that way.  That's not what or who was targeted.  If we could go back in time, and focus the police presence on the crowds in the vicinity of the finish line, it may or may not have stopped the attack, but everyone would say that the focus was in the right place.

Then, maybe the area after the finish line would have been targeted instead....it goes on and on, and my point is you cannot possibly ever have enough assets to protect absolutely everything - you can only be strong in some places, it's much like a battlefield in some respects.  A smart trained enemy will observe and detect your weak points, and hit you hard there.  It's just how it goes, it's been the same for thousands of years of conflict.

I admire the people of Boston, not just the L/E but everyone who moved toward to blasts to try and save people they didn't even know.  Considering that secondary devices are a common trick used by our enemies, it took a lot of courage for those medics, cops, doctors, and civilians to place themselves in harms way for their fellow man.  This is something that our enemies can't grasp, that as much damage as they inflict, they are in fact making us stronger, and thus defeating their own purposes. 

[Plawranc]

See Rule #14

[Nathan60]

See Rule #14

[Plawranc]

The same way you associate firing AK-47s on American troops while blowing up Humvee's with IEDs as "terrorism"

Whoever is responsible obviously doesn't have the ability to combat the US Military directly, hence the only ability to strike is at the civilian population, if you cannot defeat an enemy's military in battle, you break the will of the people supporting it.

Its an unfortunate reality.

[Shifty]

Never mind.