A-20 characteristics

[Vinkman]

No reason to have F3 mode in the MA.
You can jump to any position in a buff formation as easily as you can press F3. The idea that it's required to make up for some deficiency in Buff formation S.A. is nonsense.

Ban F3 mode in the MA when in flight.

[Karnak]

No reason to have F3 mode in the MA.
You can jump to any position in a buff formation as easily as you can press F3. The idea that it's required to make up for some deficiency in Buff formation S.A. is nonsense.

Ban F3 mode in the MA when in flight.

Sorry, but you're wrong.  Jumping to a gun, scanning around, jumping to the next gun, scanning around, jumping to the next gun, scanning around and so on is much more time consuming that hitting F3 and scanning around.  Bob didn't wait for Charlie to stop looking around before he looked around for fighters, and that is what you are asking for.

I do think that some aircraft that currently have F3 enable ought not have it enabled.

[Vinkman]

Sorry, but you're wrong.  Jumping to a gun, scanning around, jumping to the next gun, scanning around, jumping to the next gun, scanning around and so on is much more time consuming that hitting F3 and scanning around.  Bob didn't wait for Charlie to stop looking around before he looked around for fighters, and that is what you are asking for.

I do think that some aircraft that currently have F3 enable ought not have it enabled.

you don't have to jump to every gun. Top, tail, cock pit will let you see everything. Bob and charlie weren't as synchronizes as the single pilot with synched guns is in AH. If a 109 was diving on a bomber, the belly gunner wasn't tracking his path from above to below to be align to kill him as soon as he entered his view. In AH that's exactly what happens. the coordination between pilot and gunner is total Overkill in AH allowing for all kinds of Buff maneuvering to keep bandits in the kill Zone. That's why Buff pilots argue to keep it.

I've NEVER been snuck up on in a buff because of limited views from gunner positions. That's a myth. 

[Karnak]

Using Ki-67:  Top, tail and nose.

Using B-17: top, tail, nose and ball.

Cockpits in most bombers offer terrible visibility.

[Vinkman]

Using Ki-67:  Top, tail and nose.

Using B-17: top, tail, nose and ball.

Cockpits in most bombers offer terrible visibility.

But you are are arguing for a view the bomber doesn't have...even if the whole crew was in it. Isn't that why it shouln't have F3?

[Widewing]

But you are are arguing for a view the bomber doesn't have...even if the whole crew was in it. Isn't that why it shouln't have F3?

Why do you think HTC incorporated F3 in the first place?

It isn't just about having a great view, it's about the extreme vulnerability of bombers in general. Spending two hours getting your bombers to a distant target, only to be shot down by a fighter you didn't see is not conducive to fun game play.

From what I can see, you very rarely fly bombers, right? So, with that in mind, you want every advantage you can get, without regard to your fellow players. At least, that's how I read it.

Flying fighters in tour 160, I shot down 43 bombers. I lost one aircraft due to a lucky spray and pray shot that resulted in a pilot wound. Most of the time, I don't even get hit. It's all about tactics. How to attack, what aircraft to be flying and picking the best opportunity and where to shoot the bomber (the fuselage from dead astern is the most unproductive, and dangerous).

[Arlo]

 You tell `im W.

[Karnak]

But you are are arguing for a view the bomber doesn't have...even if the whole crew was in it. Isn't that why it shouln't have F3?

Both of the bombers I mentioned have full spherical visibility, even if their guns can't all bear on all angles.

Well, the Ki-67 might have some very small blind spots directly below it as long as your not too far below it.

[Lusche]

(...) where to shoot the bomber (the fuselage from dead astern is the most unproductive, and dangerous).

... and yet the most popular 

[Karnak]

I lost a Mosquito Mk VI to a two ship formation of G4M1s at 20,000ft last night as I was trying to avoid attacking from the tail.  He gave me a pilot wound with the BBs and I blacked out while making a pass, apparently ending up right behind him from the crunching noises as his 20mm sawed my wing off.  It was good shooting on his part.

[Fish42]

I lost a Mosquito Mk VI to a two ship formation of G4M1s at 20,000ft last night as I was trying to avoid attacking from the tail.  He gave me a pilot wound with the BBs and I blacked out while making a pass, apparently ending up right behind him from the crunching noises as his 20mm sawed my wing off.  It was good shooting on his part.

G4M1s are always underestimated I find. or you can ask the 3 163s and a Spit 8 that died to my buffs in 1 sortie  . Most see a easy target right up until they are in the tower.

[Brooke]

I fly bombers a fair amount, especially in scenarios.  I almost never use the external view.  It's not much hindrance to jump around and look around from the gun positions.  True, external gives you a bit better view, but I like the more-realistic views from the gun positions better.  I also tend to fly my plane from the pilot position, not gunner position, when adjusting courses in formation with others, again because it is more realistic to me, and so I like it better.  I don't think I'd argue for precluding others from using less-realistic ways, though, as long as it's not a replacement for the way I prefer.

For attacking bombers, there are people who are much, much better at it than I am.  For me, attacking B-17's, B-24's, B-26's, or even Lancs is never a low-risk proposition.

For being attacked in bombers, there are certainly some folks who could shoot down all my bombers without me getting them, but most of the time, I'll kill or disable at least one attacker before I'm down unless I'm in something like B-25C's.

[Vinkman]

It isn't just about having a great view, it's about the extreme vulnerability of bombers in general. Spending two hours getting your bombers to a distant target, only to be shot down by a fighter you didn't see is not conducive to fun game play.

From what I can see, you very rarely fly bombers, right? So, with that in mind, you want every advantage you can get, without regard to your fellow players. At least, that's how I read it.

Your claimed success against bombers is admireable. I don't know who you are killing in those bombers but it may not have been 999000, or some of the other of the games better bomber gunners. I think being a good gunner and having F3 are not the same thing. I'm saying that F3 never belongs in the game, because very time it's examined it doesn't pass the smell test. So now IL2s are "fighters" because that's the only way we can fix F3 mode in IL2s. Now it's F3 mode in A20, and B-25...etc...    F3 mode in buffs is unnecessary. I've flown enough to know you can look around from the gun positions. F3 isn't neccessary for buffs.

My point is that F3 is a feature that creates more abuse, than it solves problems. Just get rid of it. 

[ink]

Cobia around always insures a good fight...futile for him.....although I give him huge Kudos for fighting my KI with his big arse target of an A20....he does fly that thing excellently.....and always makes me work to kill him..... but if you have half a brain and understand even simple ACM......A20 just does not have the responsiveness of an actual fighter.....

simple truth is...greycliff.....thinks he is great...when in reality he is a very poor fighter...actually he is not a fighter at all...cobia on the other hand is a fighter.


the A20 did not "out turn" him............ he was out flown....... by a bomber.......


man I would hang my stick up if I suked that bad.


greycliff reread what Debrody said.......I second everything

[Widewing]

Your claimed success against bombers is admireable. I don't know who you are killing in those bombers but it may not have been 999000, or some of the other of the games better bomber gunners. I think being a good gunner and having F3 are not the same thing. I'm saying that F3 never belongs in the game, because very time it's examined it doesn't pass the smell test. So now IL2s are "fighters" because that's the only way we can fix F3 mode in IL2s. Now it's F3 mode in A20, and B-25...etc...    F3 mode in buffs is unnecessary. I've flown enough to know you can look around from the gun positions. F3 isn't neccessary for buffs.

My point is that F3 is a feature that creates more abuse, than it solves problems. Just get rid of it. 

I disagree, and unfortunately for you, most players and HTC do as well. Learn to deal with it.