This Won't Be Popular With Some...

[Letalis]

As of Tour 161 what has 4x20mm cannons, ranked 4th in overall kills while having a kill/death ratio better than the P-51D, better than the Spit16, better than the La7, better than the N1K, better than the M18?  Do you want to fly it?  Sorry folks, I speak of the wirblewind.  Now if would, go here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/planes.php?sortby=3&selectTour=LWTour161&action=1

Of the types that have a better k/d, how many are non-perk vehicles?  Looks like the answer is zero.  How many types that are perked had an inferior K/D?  At least two (M18, LVT4) just off the top of my head.

The wirb unbalances the game.  "Heresy!!" goes the cry, "the game is fine as it is!"  Well, I say that simply because you are acclimated to the status quo does not mean it is unbalanced by objective measures.  The wirb should carry a modest perk value for the following reasons:

1. The Wirb is possibly the easiest point and click system in the game.  The only other real contender here is the 5 inch gun because of the fact you will never get credit for a death in it.  I submit that both the 5 inch and 88 are less mobile in terms of both player choice and absolute mobility while also generally being harder to score kills with.
2. Can you overheat the barrels of the Wirb in game?  The ability to fire a couple thousand rounds non-stop is something even a ZSU-23 would be jealous of...
3. How prevalent was the IL-2 during WWII? Very.  In AH, flying this tank killer is one of the most fun flight profiles possible.  Emphasis on possible.  The IL-2, despite some 30,000+ examples built, is a relatively rare sight in AH. 1200 kills compared to the Wirb's 13,000...
4. How prevalent was the Wirb?  According to every source I've found, the number is unlikely to have been above 150 units.  A small perk would increase the use of more common anti-aircraft types like the M16 and balance gameplay.

And while we're at it, how many documented aircraft kills were logged by tank cannons during the entire duration of the largest war ever in mankind's history?  Please disable the ability of tank cannons to destroy flying aircraft.  I have a positive K/D in the Sherman partially for this reason, but that doesn't make it right...  

In defense of the GV players, the prevalence of the 1000 pound bomb is CAS missions enables very easy kills.   While I have not yet found specific metrics on the prevalence of 500 pound weapons vice 1000-pounders, it is clear that the 500 pound class was much more common.  I am not in favor of weapons being perked, paying instead for the versatility of the weapon platform.  Limiting fighter/attack aircraft access to 1000+ pound weapons to large airfields and carriers would go a fair way toward both historical accuracy and evening the air-ground balance of power.

Last and least, it would be an interesting addition to the game if napalm, incendiary and cluster munitions were added.  Admittedly, there are relatively few uses for such weapons compared to RL, but there are some aircraft and some uses.

Examples:  
Napalm:  Useful against light vehicles, convoys guns and town structures, dealing damage over time.  Precise hits can slowly deal damage to AAA positions and shore batteries with a small chance of internal explosion due to "cookoff," an effect also possible when hitting trains.
Incendiary: Lights fires to building which spread and deal damage relatively slowly over time.  Potentially greater net damaged partially offset by time.
Cluster:  Useful against light vehicles, convoys, personnel, AAA.
(http://www.303rdbg.com/bombs.html)

Inclusion of a wider variety of weapons would necessitate a change to the hangar ord selection GUI, but hey, it's a wishlist:)

[MK-84]

Historically in many occasions I would assume that there were dozens if not hundreds of weapons ranging from small arms to dedicated anti-aircraft weapons that would await a low flying aircraft attacking an enemy position.
We dont have that
We do have a wirble in AH though.  I believe that exists simply to balance gameplay, like a giant sign that says "attacking ground targets is extremely dangerous around here"
The wirble can is reasonably easy to identify from the air from outside its range
GV spawn points are clearly shown
A huge streak of tracer fire might be a warning sign...
I think it is fine for gameplay purposes.

Yours truly,
MK84 (who lost a 262 strafing one about two hours ago)

[kvuo75]

I don't use the warble, and don't have the stats, but I'd almost bet the K/d for it went way up when the gv icon range was reduced.

[Letalis]

@Kvuo: I don't really have much issue with the gv icon range, a little short indeed, but perhaps a compromise can be made.  GVs could be very difficult to spot when stationary and camo'd, likewise they were much easier to spot on the move.  It would be harder to coad, but what about this:

For single seat aircraft: stationary GVs have a generic icon at just 400 with ID provided at 200 without exception.  If the vehicle is moving, generic icon occurs for airborne aircraft at the vehicle speed multiplied by 300 all divided by the aircraft's speed in miles per minutes groundspeed.  Example: An M18 tank is moving at 25mph, detection/icon range for a single seat aircraft traveling at 300 ground (5 miles/min) would be: (25*300)/5=1500M. The detection range with a vehicle speed of 50 in he same scenario would generate a 3.0 general icon range while a GV speed of 5 would yield icon at just 300M.  GV type icon on movers for single seat aircraft occurs at 600M or 1/2 of dynamic icon range, whichever is less.  

For multi-place aircraft:  The same formulas apply with a 30% range bonus to reflect at least one more set of dedicated eyes.  A Fi156 moving at 60kts ground will detect an M18 moving at 25mph at a range of 7.5, the max icon range for aircraft. (Roughly 4 miles)  Remember how the GV moving at 5mph yielded a icon range of 300 with the fast-moving single-seater? The Fi156 moving at 1/5th the speed will gain generic icon at 1500M!  GV icon type on movers for multi-place aircraft occurs at 600M or 1/2 of dynamic range, whichever is greater. 

Adding dynamic icon range to the mix would add an element of strategy for both air and ground parties.

@MK84: "Well, I say that simply because you are acclimated to the status quo does not mean it is unbalanced by objective measures."

 I'm sorry about your 262.  I also get where you're coming from to a degree, but don't you think that the 30k+ IL-2 ("as essential to the Red Army as air and bread") is relegated to virtual non-factor status by a platform that consisted of less than 150 units?  Does that seem right?  

[lyric1]

Well I contend the Wirbel is nowhere near deadly enough.
We don't have the correct gun sights that's right sights it had two one for ground & one for air targets & the one we have now was not on the Wirbel. We don't have the ability to traverse the gun in its full range of motion in the vertical from what I have read.

While we are at it & since the need to perk it is in the air again. Lets give it the AP rounds the Wirbel carried as well.

Just so we can punch some holes in tanks & really rack up it's kill to death rate.

After that perk the hell out of it.
Anyways I prefer the Ostwind. 

[Tank-Ace]

So because the aircraft doesn't have his life at stake, and so flies in a manner so much stupider and vulnerable than in real life.... we should perk the Wirbelwind....

What the hell have you been drinking? If the Wirbelwind has a high KTD, then it is entirely the fault of the aircraft that got shot down. It is the same as if everyone felt the compulsion to HO every 110 they saw; the 110 would have an astronomical KTD, and could never need a perking.

Also, il-2s were shot down in droves, IIRC. And pilots were forced to fly them under threat of beatings, imprisonment, or even death. They weren't prevalent because everyone loved them.


Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see relevant automatic weapons need to be reloaded. IIRC, the Wirbelwind could only have 84 rounds loaded at any one time

[Letalis]

-You can't assume people (not aircraft) all fly like idiots because you want to set up a straw man argument, that's not very polite...  (I don't drink BTW)

There were thousands of IL-2s lost, sure, just like there were over 3000 Jugs lost in combat, but you can be sure these "droves" weren't lost to Wirblewinds. 

-Why pilots flew the IL-2 is irrelevant to this discussion. 

-The IL-2 killed tanks in droves IIRC, but you don't see that in AH.  I've spent quite a bit of time playing this game and it is not uncommon for me to go the better part of the week without seeing an IL-2 land kills.  IL-2 pilots must just be "much stupider" than normal people...

-This discussion has much more to do with the fact that a vehicle model with maybe 100-ish examples makes up two thirds of the AAA GV kills, and is #4 overall in kills.

-I am for more realism - bring on the AP rounds, the sights and the short clip but let's not overdo the Wirb's prevalence...

[Chalenge]

There are only three anti-air GVs. One of them has to take top billing. The M-16 is a great idea, but it can be killed with .50 calibers. The Ostie is less favored because it takes a lot of time in the gun to hit anything with it. That leaves the Wirb. One reason it kills so many aircraft is because so many noobs, and even non-noobs get really stupid when it comes time to kill the ack on a field (or vulch). It's hard to see the GVs because of reduced icon range. Then there is also the fact that the majority of low-level missions are against vehicle fields where a Wirb can either shoot or drive to a target quickly. Anyone experienced with the vehicle can shred low level bombers rather easily, despite the Wirb having already been neutered below its real-world performance capabilities. And lastly, the Tiger II is not the only vehicle that can tower when it is sitting on concrete, which helps to lower kills against any vehicle.

Wish denied. This is a whine thread.

[Lusche]

I don't use the warble, and don't have the stats, but I'd almost bet the K/d for it went way up when the gv icon range was reduced.

I wouldn't...

Wirbelwind overall K/D by year

[asterix]

1. The Wirb is possibly the easiest point and click system in the game.  The only other real contender here is the 5 inch gun because of the fact you will never get credit for a death in it.  I submit that both the 5 inch and 88 are less mobile in terms of both player choice and absolute mobility while also generally being harder to score kills with.

5in is the best anti air imho because of the usable range. Wirble seems to be the only real defence gv-s have against air threat in this game. Without it gv-s would be easy to pick. Statistics does not always show the whole picture. For example if Wirbles get a lot of kills by shooting at very low flying formations of buffs, that does not mean it unbalances the game.

2. Can you overheat the barrels of the Wirb in game?  The ability to fire a couple thousand rounds non-stop is something even a ZSU-23 would be jealous of...

Can you overheat the engines, guns etc of an aircraft in game?

3. How prevalent was the IL-2 during WWII? Very.  In AH, flying this tank killer is one of the most fun flight profiles possible.  Emphasis on possible.  The IL-2, despite some 30,000+ examples built, is a relatively rare sight in AH. 1200 kills compared to the Wirb's 13,000...

I understand that flying the IL-2 is fun for you, but for many the first choice is low level carpet bombing or a jabo. My personal favourite is the B25H. Trying to sneak close to a wirble or any other gv and getting it with the 75mm is a blast. Often does not work, but when I succeed it is like  I bet most Wirble kills are aircraft that are low, slow or heading straight towards it. If people do not use the IL-2 then of course it gets few kills.

4. How prevalent was the Wirb?  According to every source I've found, the number is unlikely to have been above 150 units.  A small perk would increase the use of more common anti-aircraft types like the M16 and balance gameplay.

M16 with it`s .50s is an easy target for air. If the Wirble really unbalances the game and it should be perked, there should be a new anti air ground weapon introduced in my opinion. Something tougher than an M-16 and at least comparable to the firepower that fighters/attack planes have.

And while we're at it, how many documented aircraft kills were logged by tank cannons during the entire duration of the largest war ever in mankind's history?  Please disable the ability of tank cannons to destroy flying aircraft.  I have a positive K/D in the Sherman partially for this reason, but that doesn't make it right...  

How many tank crews had a chance in practicing shooting air targets with their main gun? One of the reasons why weapons are accurate in this game is the practice people get when shooting targets moving at various speeds and angles. I imagine that lifespan was short in real war and you could not get the experience players get from the game by learning from their mistakes. "How to" information is also available from the internet.

As I have stated in other threads player vs player fight is very important aspect in online games for me. If a single tank spawns to deack the town near an airfield and it can`t shoot aircraft with the main gun, it would be a sitting duck for air threat. When a tank is using the main gun to shoot air targets in the game you are already preventing it from shooting ground targets. It`s position is also revealed to friendly gv-s. Maybe something should be done, but gvs would be too vulnerable at present with less Wibles to protect them.

[Tinkles]

5in is the best anti air imho because of the usable range. Wirble seems to be the only real defence gv-s have against air threat in this game. Without it gv-s would be easy to pick. Statistics does not always show the whole picture. For example if Wirbles get a lot of kills by shooting at very low flying formations of buffs, that does not mean it unbalances the game.
Can you overheat the engines, guns etc of an aircraft in game?
I understand that flying the IL-2 is fun for you, but for many the first choice is low level carpet bombing or a jabo. My personal favourite is the B25H. Trying to sneak close to a wirble or any other gv and getting it with the 75mm is a blast. Often does not work, but when I succeed it is like  I bet most Wirble kills are aircraft that are low, slow or heading straight towards it. If people do not use the IL-2 then of course it gets few kills.
M16 with it`s .50s is an easy target for air. If the Wirble really unbalances the game and it should be perked, there should be a new anti air ground weapon introduced in my opinion. Something tougher than an M-16 and at least comparable to the firepower that fighters/attack planes have.
How many tank crews had a chance in practicing shooting air targets with their main gun? One of the reasons why weapons are accurate in this game is the practice people get when shooting targets moving at various speeds and angles. I imagine that lifespan was short in real war and you could not get the experience players get from the game by learning from their mistakes. "How to" information is also available from the internet.

As I have stated in other threads player vs player fight is very important aspect in online games for me. If a single tank spawns to deack the town near an airfield and it can`t shoot aircraft with the main gun, it would be a sitting duck for air threat. When a tank is using the main gun to shoot air targets in the game you are already preventing it from shooting ground targets. It`s position is also revealed to friendly gv-s. Maybe something should be done, but gvs would be too vulnerable at present with less Wibles to protect them.

All of this. Plus, the .50 cals from the m16 are quite weak, imho. I think I still have the video of a low n slow 262 that was attacking bish gvs, and ENY was too high for a wirble, I upped an m16 and got enough hits on him to knock out both of his engines, but he was able to coast back to base and land successfully....


At certain angles you can actually see ground vehicles from 2-3k away, they look like shiny specs on black carpet.   

If HTC updated the wirbles with all their counterparts realistic attributes from AP rounds to gunsights and whatnot then sure. Give it 1-2 perkies, once I get my portable 88MM towable via jeep or m3.   

Then I'm sure we will be hearing after that is released on how over-powered it is


Until then the wirble doesn't deserve to be perked until it is updated.

Tinkles

 

[waystin2]

The WirbelGawd will not respond to this thread out of respect for Letalis.

[pembquist]

I think the balance on this is issue is just fine as it is. If your in a plane flying low over a hot spawn and suddenly you here whack ping bang and see death lazers all around you, your cursing expostulations are perfectly balanced by the poor bastard in a panther watching the f6 that just missed him reupping mere seconds after his first drop with two more shiny orbs of death.  And that's not even mentioning the close air support lancasters.

[Letalis]

I think the balance on this is issue is just fine as it is. If your in a plane flying low over a hot spawn and suddenly you here whack ping bang and see death lazers all around you, your cursing expostulations are perfectly balanced by the poor bastard in a panther watching the f6 that just missed him reupping mere seconds after his first drop with two more shiny orbs of death.  And that's not even mentioning the close air support lancasters.

Not out to "get" the GVers.  I did mention adjusting icon range and ord.  If the Wirb were produced in large numbers I'd have no problem.  My problem is that this RL rarity has pretty much eliminated a staple Ruskie aircraft.  The withering fire brought about by high sortie rates, large bombs, buff formations and pilot proficiency do call for an evening of the odds, just make the answer something that affected the war.  The formation buff issue could be partially fixed by 1. increasing calibration time or disabling it completely below 5k. 2. Fixing the specular winking you get at 3k when looking at GVs (they should be matte). 

I do not have a decent answer for Lancstukas but mobile AAA with longer range and more hitting power will only help.

Maybe what we need are some of these:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_gun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_3.7_inch_AA_gun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_3_inch_20_cwt
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=488
http://olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_37mm_aaa.php

Towed by a jeep or truck, these would be mobile, hard to spot and deadly.  Some wouldn't even require a setup time.
Granted they would be easier to kill, but also higher ENY and offer greater range than the wirb.  Aircraft over the front would be well within envelope range at the 5-8k alt that enables easy plinking.

Or what about the Crusader?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_tank

A Wirb with a perk cost of 1 or 2 at 10ENY would pay for itself with one or two kills.  The pertinent points have all been made, I shall now discontinue this line of reasoning out of respect for the Wirblegawd.

[Tank-Ace]

Letalis, don't be obtuse. Regardless of if it's the plane or the pilot being dumb (and I guaran-damn-tee you knew what I meant), the fact remains that the Wirbelwind in no way responsible for the high KTD, the planes/pilots are.

And it is no more unbalancing than the dozens of other things that are all screwed up either. Spits fighting spits, 109s fighting 190s, and the number of wirbs produced relative to their usage bothers you?

Also, reasons for why il-2s were common in WW2 is entirely relevant, when you were talking about how uncommon it is in the game (the reason being that it is terrible in game, and far less survivable than many other attack platforms.)

Your problems are either contrived or based on your emotional perception of what's going on. I think we're done here.