Next Setup

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by popeye:
Use SWulfe's list, but drop the 51B and add the 38L.

NO PERKS.

Well I guess if you are looking for a gameplay concession this is OK, but historically....NO way. The P-51B was operational in January 44. The P-38L was operational later in the year.

edited to ad the "L" on the P-38

[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by:  ]

[Lizard3]

Speaking of perks, there were a number of Tempests flying early the first day. How was that accomplished?

[Fester']

agreed funkeds idea rocks

[hblair]

The P47d11 should not be included til the FM is fixed.

[edit]What I mean is with a short list like SWulfes, the p47d11 could cause an imbalance if coupled with a ponyb. In a progressive deal like funked is proposing, I don't think there would be a problem.[/edit]

[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]

[AKSWulfe]

Lizard, the perk system "cost" was disabled until some odd number of hours had passed and a few people got perk points. Then the "cost" was setup for the perk planes that were in there and people had to "pay" to fly them then.
-SW

[Westy MOL]

"the p47d11 could cause an imbalance if coupled with a ponyB"

 Correct. which is why I earlier suggested one or the other but not both.

  Westy

[R4M]

Originally posted by -ammo-:


This is not about equal  ground, (even though I think it is definately that), It is about a historical planeset. If it was a 1940 BOB arena, the Germans would be at an advantage, and that would be just fine because that is just how history dictated it. SW's list is really good and about the best we can do. Leave the G10, P-51D, Tempest, TA152, D30, D25, Dora out till another time frame is wished for.

Allied-

Spit 5, Spit 9, P-47D11, P-51B, B26

Axis-

109F, 109G2, 109G6, 190A5, Ju88

Whats wrong with that? That is a January 44 list. The months leading up to historical Big week in March. I get excited thinking about how much fun it would be.

< I left out the Lightening because the one we have is a later variant.>

Ammo, please read ALL my previous messages because I have already explained this.

You are suggesting a early 1944 planeset, and I say that germany lacks the proper 109G6 to fit in that time, and that while we lack it, we should use the G10 to play its role.

The 109G6 we have in AH is an early 1943 one, the first variant of them all, with DB605A engines. By late 1943- early 1944 many of the 109G6s in action in the western front were sporting DB605AM or DB605AS engines. Some even sported DB605ASM engines.

 Many of the 109g6s were fitted with either GM1 and MW50 boosters, some of them with both.

Simply said, the 109G line jumps from early summer of 1943 until late summer 1944. There is 1 year void of adequate 109G representation because the G6 lacks the MW50 booster and/or the DB605AS engine.

 The 109G6 we have, hell, performs WORSE than the 109g2!!!. By february 1944, most 109G6s had the MW50 injection wich made them able to fly at 425mph at 25000 feet. Compare it with the terrible 386mph it does the G6 we have and you'll understand wich is my point.

Same goes for the P38L. Is a late 1944 variant, but better to have a later P38 with somewhat better performance than no P38 at all. At least IMO.

[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

[-ammo-]

HuH? You guys want an historical planeset. But when it doesnt suit you you say.."naa cant have the D11 and the npony in the same set". Do you really wnat a Hsitorical arena or do you want an arena where its planeset will be adjusted so everyone will be OK with it, reguardless of history?  Whats up with that?

I guess the question I should ask is this.. What is the Combat theater supposed to be? IS it an historical Arena where history itself dictates the inclusion of AC or is it an MA style "axis vs allied" fantasy gameplay arena? If its the Latter then we can tailor the planeset to whatever we want as long as axis is included in one chess piece and allied another. We can even include Japanese AC in France! Hey put the YAK9 and LA7 at  RAF Boxted along with my D25

[R4M]

Originally posted by -ammo-:
HuH? You guys want an historical planeset. But when it doesnt suit you you say.."naa cant have the D11 and the npony in the same set". Do you really wnat a Hsitorical arena or do you want an arena where its planeset will be adjusted so everyone will be OK with it, reguardless of history?  Whats up with that?

In my planeset list I put both of them   . I'd WANT Both of them...Historically they were there at the time, and I'd like to fight against the P47D11 and P51B aswell  

[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by R4M:



Ammo, please read ALL my previous messages because I have already explained this.

You are suggesting a early 1944 planeset, and I say that germany lacks the proper 109G6 to fit in that time, and that while we lack it, we should use the G10 to play its role.

The 109G6 we have in AH is an early 1943 one, the first variant of them all, with DB605A engines. By late 1943- early 1944 many of the 109G6s in action in the western front were sporting DB605AM or DB605AS engines. Some even sported DB605ASM engines.

 Many of the 109g6s were fitted with either GM1 and MW50 boosters, some of them with both.

Simply said, the 109G line jumps from early summer of 1943 until late summer 1944. There is 1 year void of adequate 109G representation because the G6 lacks the MW50 booster and/or the DB605AS engine.

 The 109G6 we have, hell, performs WORSE than the 109g2!!!. By february 1944, most 109G6s had the MW50 injection wich made them able to fly at 425mph at 25000 feet. Compare it with the terrible 386mph it does the G6 we have and you'll understand wich is my point.

Same goes for the P38L. Is a late 1944 variant, but better to have a later P38 with somewhat better performance than no P38 at all. At least IMO.

[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

Understood complertely RAM. At the same time the allies lack the correct Spit 9, The spit that was better represented was much better than the one we have. So include the tempest in its stead? You see what i mean? The same argument can go either way.

[AKSWulfe]

The 109G10 is simply superior in climb and level acceleration than any plane listed in my planeset.

I'm not saying, "equality".. I'm trying to say "single historical time period"

In other words, it's silly after all these posts I've read "it's not historical" to be subbing aircraft in there just because it's not fair or because it's under-representated.

I left the P38L out for a reason, the 190D9, P51D, 109G10, and all other late war aircraft do not belong with the planeset I listed in anyway in relation to "history"..

If you just throw a jury rigged planeset together because you want your favorite airplane in the set, please play in the MA. If you want a single time period represented then lets do that.. but not lets just throw together planes from between 1941 and late 1944.
-SW

[R4M]

Originally posted by -ammo-:


Understood complertely RAM. At the same time the allies lack the correct Spit 9, The spit that was better represented was much better than the one we have. So include the tempest in its stead? You see what i mean? The same argument can go either way.

if that tries to be a reasonable answer, Ammo, then I give up. If you try to support that point comparing a Spit LF IX perfomrance with that of a Spit F.IX wich, is just 20mph slower at SL than the spit IX we have (and it is as fast as it at high altitude), while the 109G6 we have is almost 30-40mph slower AT ANY ALTITUDE than the G6/AS I talk about...then ,I say, what I say is that you have your eyes closed.

 BTW; the 109G6 we have is 20mph slower than a spitfire f.IX at 25k, when it should be all the the other way. A spit LF.IX is as fast as a Spit F.IX at that altitude. SO IT STILL SHOULD BE 20mph SLOWER than its historical 109G6 counterpart (wich made around 425mph).

Guess who's losing here?

And if you try to even compare a Spit LF.IX performance to that of Tempest's, then its pointless to argue because you simply are joking. You can't be serious.

SWulfe, the G6 with AS engine and MW50 had 200 less hp than the G10 we currently have. Guess what, the climbrate of that plane was, still by far, the biggest of the fighter of his time on the ETO.  

But not on the 109G6 we have, of course...

[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by R4M:



if that tries to be a reasonable answer, Ammo, then I give up. If you try to support that point comparing a Spit LF IX perfomrance with that of a Spit F.IX wich, is just 20mph slower at SL than the spit IX we have (and it is as fast as it at high altitude), while the 109G6 we have is almost 30-40mph slower AT ANY ALTITUDE than the G6/AS I talk about...then ,I say, what I say is that you have your eyes closed.

And if you try to even compare a Spit LF.IX performance to that of Tempest's, then its pointless to argue because you simply are joking.

SWulfe, the G6 with AS engine and MW50 had 200 less hp than the G10 we currently have. Guess what, the climbrate of that plane was, by far, the biggest of the fighter of his time on the ETO.  

Hey M8, just playing the same tune as you are

You cant have your cake and eat it too.

My hope that this turns out to be a true Historical based arena. I like SW's setup,  because it seems to be based on just that..history. Funked's idea seem pretty good too.  I just hope that concessions will be made just to please people when they are way off the mark when it comes to history.

[AKSWulfe]

So now it's about being fair not history?

Honestly.. "realism" and "historical" I never want to see used again in any context by any of you that are trying to replace planes with later models. It's rediculous.

The planeset I threw out there is the closest we'll get to a specific time period, and the most complete time frame modelled in the game.

You just want to replace the 109G10 with the 109G6 because you think the best model of the 109G6 should be available.. well okay, lets get HTC to model the best and latest SpitIX, the best and latest Hurricane, etc...

It's getting rediculous now, you want it to be fair and equal... the war just wasn't like that.

Do you want it to be a historical arena or a hysterical one? Do you want people to log in and think to themselves "Hey, this planeset looks pretty nice" or do you want them to log into it and say "WTF?! A 109G10 and SpitV in the same 'historical arena'"?


If we are going to push the "lets get the best planes in there and cover all 5 years of the war at once", I will just play in the MA and hope that this Combat Theater fails. You want it to be the MA with historical counterparts but covering all 5 years at once.. it's getting rediculous.
-SW

[ygsmilo]

SWulfes list is good, use it.