Salute! to B-26 raid at A2 near Schweinfurt

[Butcher]

They don't. In this setup 262's are scouts. If you find your obj, report it and find another region to scout and find more. Remember every lost 262 in this setup is not available in later frames.

Once the main bomber formation is found what do you do? Ignore the 262s and let them land without firing a shot? what if the Allied CIC sends scouts to catch the 262s landing?
I am not saying send in the 262s guns blazing, but in previous uses ive seen them to great effect, used as just scouts is fine until you realize you wasted their advantages all together.

[Devil 505]

They don't. In this setup 262's are scouts. If you find your obj, report it and find another region to scout and find more. Remember every lost 262 in this setup is not available in later frames.

Nowhere in the event write-up does it state that 262's are scouts. In fact, it is not even suggested. Using them as scouts was a decision made by the CiC.

[Butcher]

Nowhere in the event write-up does it state that 262's are scouts. In fact, it is not even suggested. Using them as scouts was a decision made by the CiC.

our write-up was the same way, we decided to use them as scouts first then attack accordingly depending on what the situation is. It was up to the CIC to decide, he however gave us free reign to do what we wanted.

We stuck to being scouts, until buffs were found unescorted on the deck, then it was a field day.

[CptA]

Devil,

As you say, your opinion is your own. My opinion is that most of what you expressed is just sour grapes because you personally had a bad night.
 
Your Squad on the other hand appears to have had a rather good night. Kommando Nowotny fielded 12 pilots and was credited with 11 kills, while 334th FS fielded 4 pilots and had 6 kills...a good night's work <salute>.

Btw, I notice that your Squad CO didn't make these comments, so maybe he doesn't share your opinion either...I don't know.

But, I'll share some of the points that lead to the decisions on who and what to assign to the overall Axis defense and the defense of A2.

The Axis battle played out almost exactly as planned...Our primary defense was forward of the Strat Targets, with reinforcements directly over the targets themselves. The Me262 Scouts found and reported the enemy Fighter Sweeps and Bomber streams early, and kept up a continously updated position and course fix. This allowed us to engage them well short of their targets in most cases. So, no they weren't wasting their time, they were supporting the larger battle. I chose to use the Me262s in small numbers (4 of an available 8) and as scouts only, in order to leave as many as possible for use in follow-on frames. Every Me262 lost was a jet that would not be replaced in future frames.

The three forward Strat targets were worth 300 points each (900 points total), your airfield was worth 120 points (12 Hangars @ 10 points each). Also, to reach your airfield the Allied strikes had to fly thru the thickest parts of our defenses, significantly degrading them in the process. I chose to risk damage at A2 to prevent worse damage elsewhere.

The Allies appear to have focused on the Strat targets as their primaries, with their main emphasis in the Central and Southern part of the battlefield, as this is where they commited their B-17s, P-51Ds, and P-47s. The two Airfield targets were probably a secondary effort, as indicated by the types of planes they used against A2 (B-26s, P-38s, & P-51B).

I'm sorry you don't like that I gave some of the Squad COs the freedom to choose which plane to fly...not because I could not make up my mind, but instead because I trust them to know their own squads preferences and capabilities better than I do...or better than you do for that matter.

Were mistakes made? Maybe. No plan survives contact with the enemy. But I don't think they were the ones you were so carefull to not point out.

To sum up the battle the Allies fielded 156 pilots, scored 68 kills, and destroyed 68 objects. The Axis fielded 153 pilots and scored 134 kills. That's just about a 2 to 1 kill ratio! Very well fought!

<salute> Axis Commanders, Squads, & Pilots!

CptA
Axis CiC - Frame 1

[Butcher]

To sum up the battle the Allies fielded 156 pilots, scored 68 kills, and destroyed 68 objects. The Axis fielded 153 pilots and scored 134 kills. That's just about a 2 to 1 kill ratio! Very well fought!

<salute> Axis Commanders, Squads, & Pilots!

CptA
Axis CiC - Frame 1

With those numbers you did fantastic job, I was on the receiving end of that setup - damn the muppets.

[Molsman]

.....

[Devil 505]

CptA,

My "bad night" had nothing to do with your plan. If the end result of my flight was the motivation of me posting, then it would have been a rant on flopping P-38 pilots who drop their gear to induce collisions. But since that's not the topic I started, obviously my personal experience from last night bears little on my critical posting of your plan.

Now that you've explained your motivations behind your decisions, allow me to address the points.

The three forward Strat targets were worth 300 points each (900 points total), your airfield was worth 120 points (12 Hangars @ 10 points each). Also, to reach your airfield the Allied strikes had to fly thru the thickest parts of our defenses, significantly degrading them in the process. I chose to risk damage at A2 to prevent worse damage elsewhere.

Given the point value discrepancy between the strats and the bases, your plan was indeed the correct choice. I didn't realize the strats were worth that much more than the bases. I now see why you would allocate units as you did. Mostly.

I chose to use the Me262s in small numbers (4 of an available 8) and as scouts only, in order to leave as many as possible for use in follow-on frames. Every Me262 lost was a jet that would not be replaced in future frames.

I still do not agree with having solo 262 as pure scouts. Using a total of 4 was a sound decision (and yes I know that there are only 8 for the whole FSO), but I'd have them in pairs scouting for the prime targets. Afterward, they would attack the bomber stream to disrupt the organization of the formations and escort layers just as the 109s and 190s arrive. A single 262 is a nuisance, but a pair is an extremely effective threat to an enemy. With everybody watching for the jets, it makes the job of the 109s and especially the 190s much easier. As you said "supporting the larger battle."

I'm sorry you don't like that I gave some of the Squad COs the freedom to choose which plane to fly...not because I could not make up my mind, but instead because I trust them to know their own squads preferences and capabilities better than I do...or better than you do for that matter.

Ideally, you'd be right. But in reality, this just leads to chaos before launch as COs coordinate with each other, instead of having the basic plan known from the orders and just briefing their pilots. Remember in this case just how drastic a difference a 109G-14 is from a 190A-8. The strengths of each airplane dictate the role it will be used in. Having this settled in the minutes before the frame does not allow for pilots to practice for unfamiliar aircraft  and/or roles. If the orders are "Squad X does this" then there is time for those who are unfamiliar or uncomfortable with their plane precious days to prepare. Time before the frame is then spent on the details of the tactical plan instead of jockeying for the preferred ride.

To sum up the battle the Allies fielded 156 pilots, scored 68 kills, and destroyed 68 objects. The Axis fielded 153 pilots and scored 134 kills. That's just about a 2 to 1 kill ratio! Very well fought!

Well the numbers indicate a job well done, so I'll leave it at that. 

[Bino]

I cannot speak for others, but 10thMD did a stellar job of jet-scouting for JG11.  His intel allowed JG11 to set up an initial attack right on the nose of an incoming attack by B-26s - before they got to their target.  Their drop was certainly disrupted, and I don't think any of those bombers made it home.

Of the four jets flown, three were expended: disco, shot down, bailed.  The jets themselves scored six kills: 2 bombers and 4 fighters.  And their intel assured many more kills by other planes.

Sure seems like an OK plan to me.   

[Shamus]

I just want to say that I liked leaving plane choice up to the squad CO. The 334th spent the two days prior to FSO flying both the g14 and a8 in the main and found out which plane the majority was most comfortable with.

shamus

[Gooss]

It's probably happened before and I've missed it.  This is the first negative critique of an FSO plan I have seen on the BBS.  Seems like an inappropriate personal attack.  I hope it doesn't affect the squad's assignments in the future.

HONK!
Gooss

[Butcher]

It's probably happened before and I've missed it.  This is the first negative critique of an FSO plan I have seen on the BBS.  Seems like an inappropriate personal attack.  I hope it doesn't affect the squad's assignments in the future.

HONK!
Gooss

There has been a few before, most of the time it comes down to egos clashing or people upset they don't get to fly what they want.

[guncrasher]

There has been a few before, most of the time it comes down to egos clashing or people upset they don't get to fly what they want.

I was excited when they told us our plane would be either ponies or b17's.  all week I looked forward to friday and was disappointed when I was assigned to a b17.  everybody knows I love the pony.

of all the bombers the b17 is the one I hate the most, I cant seem to see out of it to gun as well as the others.  then to make it worst it was explained to me that manual calibration was required.  I have never been able to manually calibrate.

so here I am in a plane I dont like trying to fight 109's that are swarming our formation which of course I cant track the 109's.  and when the 109's were finally gone I couldnt calibrate to drop accurately on the base.  I just opened the bomb doors and just dropped all 12, I dont think I even hit the base.

so what a disappointment right?  no, actually I had a lot of fun.  between the excitement and frustration and of seeing the 109's and yelling at the other b17's to watch for their field of fire and they hit me more than the 109's did, it was a lot of fun.  how can you not laugh when your squadie tells you that he got 3 kills and if it wasnt for my "fat azz" being on the way he would have gotten 4?  I just replied that i would have fired at the 109's but I was to busy jumping around trying to avoid his friendly fire.  when I was down to 1 single bomber and still couldnt fire so I decided to have fun.  I tried to rope a 109 with my b17 and surprised he went for it and was easily killed by our fighter escort  .

I wouldnt want to fly the b17 again in an fso  , but then again this fso was the funnest I have ever had  . 


semp

[Spikes]

They don't. In this setup 262's are scouts. If you find your obj, report it and find another region to scout and find more. Remember every lost 262 in this setup is not available in later frames.

I agree that the 262s take mainly a scouting role in this event. While that is not documented, when you see you only get 8, and losses are not replaced, that is exactly what I think of first. The problem lies with the 262s not flying in pairs. Any two planes become better when they are wingmen, and this is incredibly important with Jets, because there is not a single plane in the game that can support a 262 besides another 262. Even if the jets are separated by 2-3 sectors they can still support each other very easily...you cant say the same about a 262 and a 109/190. Even though there were only 8 to roll and 4 were given out, it would be better to have 2 and 2, both scouting a larger area of land but still working together.

This is from personal experience flying 262s in events.

[Zacherof]

Well fought Gunfighters. 1 pass you gave me a pilot wound and radiator hit. Very good gunnery.

I still made it back to base and landed safe during my 5th blackout.
 

Only 2 visit the BBS. Albiet very rarely.

TGF are tough foes and love using RL tactics to get the job done

[razmataz]

The Gunfighters had excellent escorts, who used great team work and tactics in getting us to the target and helping us slug our way out. The Unforgiven Flew along tripping dar rings giving the enemy a false sense of our location, while we flew to the north of them. The Free Birds Linked up and flew close escort.

We were up against some very smart German pilots who wouldn't just come in on our six so we could blast them. They used tactics and patients to get the right angle on our B-26's causing the most damage while obtaining the least amount of damage themselves.

Really enjoyed this frame guys 
  Raz299 Co {The GunFighers}