Clarifications about the Spitfire Mk IX and XVI

[BaldEagl]

Certainly. K4 agreeable with you?

And score matters how, exactly? I'm proof score doesn't matter a wooden dime's worth.

K4's fine with me.  Lets try for this weekend and let's take this to PM's.

[MiloMorai]

Production dates, dates on squadron, dates damaged and dates off squadron are all available in the link Milo posted way back. They tie in nicely with Neil Stirling's strength data. There's several publications which deal with the RAF's order of battle, the squadron locations, as well as their claims and losses on a day-by-day basis. The best source for the 2nd TAF even lists times, places, pilot names, serial numbers, in most cases their Luftwaffe opponents etc.

All one needs is a library card, but that presupposes the applicant has the ability to sign his own name.

I think he might be capable of making an X.

[Pongo]

Amazing troll powers, Thought Karnak could deal with such. lol

First contention, Few Spit XVI reached operations before the end of the war.
Well. Karnaks Spitfires the history book says when every one was made.  The first prototype one flew in December 1943. It stayed in an MU until nearly the end of the war.
5 or 6 trickled in before October 1944.
The first survived  went to 332 sq on Nov 11 44.
The second the war as a trials plane, was compared to the equivalent MK IX and found identical. Scraped after the war
The third was sent to 66 sq on Oct 3, lost on fighter ops on Dec 15
The forth went to 322 sq on Nov 11
The fifth went to 127 sq on Nov 11.

Then there were two orders for Spit IX totaling  173 spits, with 52 delivered as XVIs delivered between Oct 3 and 19 1944, nearly squadron strengths of them went to 332 and 66 squadrons, the remainder in 1s and 2s to other squadrons including some of the 400 series Canadian squadrons. Of those 52, 15 were lost on fighter ops.

That is a summary of the first 25cm of the list of mk xvi serials in the spifire history, begins on page 434.

The list ends 502cm later on page 443.  I will not summarize the list further for you except to say that the last seem to have been made in June 45. There are certainly lots that never even reached the Mobilization Unit until after May.
Many hundreds were in squadrons before the end of 1944.  If they made it to an MU by March, they seem to have been in squadrons by April.

You are free to study it if you like but the simple fact is that the XVI was almost a back bone of the late war RAF. In the Canadian Spit squadrons it was almost the rule for the last 4 months of the war. A 5 minute glance showed 443 squadron still losing these planes on fighter ops on the 21st of April 1945.
If you can find copies of "Spitfire the Canadians" volume 1 and 2, the stories and pictures of Spit XVI are common.

And yes, there was a 6 X 50 cal trial spit. It was not a fear of the logistics that stopped the Brits adopting it, but the massive superiority of the Hispano.

[MiloMorai]

Spitfire: The History is not required as the serial numbers are online, http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/home.html

[Franz Von Werra]

Neato page, it was posted earlier, but none of those tabs say 'combat' let alone 'air to air combat!'  

[MiloMorai]

Neato page, it was posted earlier, but none of those tabs say 'combat' let alone 'air to air combat!'  

Look at the history of those units, troll.

Yes they do. Two examples from a quick search,
TB297   LFXVI         M266   6MU 8-1-45 340S 'GW-F' 15-2-45 Damaged by fighters and abandoned nr Bocholt 13-3-45
TB754   LFXVI         M266   33MU 3-3-45 83GSU 17-3-45 403S 5-4-45 Combat with Fw190s of JG26 then engine cut crashlanded SE of Bremen 23-4-45


Pongo, MU is Maintenance Unit not Mobilization Unit

[Scherf]

It's clear from the link above which squadrons XVIs were delivered to, when, and in what volumes.

The day-to-day history of the squadrons which accounted for the majority of air-to-air claims, along with a brief description of most of the claims themselves, is here:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/docs/RCAF_Overseas_vol3_e.pdf

Of course, some readers may struggle with the table on pdf page 7 which associates squadrons with nicknames, used throughout the narrative. Those same readers may need crayons and paper to record which squadrons are on which wings, assuming they can manage the big words in the text which provide that information.

[Pongo]

Neato page, it was posted earlier, but none of those tabs say 'combat' let alone 'air to air combat!'  

I gave examples of aircraft lost on fighter ops. What does fighter ops mean to you?
It might be hard for you to accept that your nazi heros really didn't want to fight Spitfires any more then you do, but that's the sad truth, The allies had far better planes, far better pilots and far more of everything by the time the Brits started putting surplus packard merlins into spitfire airframes.  So your heroes just didn't show up to be shot down.
War had lost its fun for them.

[Karnak]

Hey Pongo.  Good to see you about.

Nothing we say will get Franz to admit what he already knows.

[Franz Von Werra]

hmm, Pongo don't know me very well, do he? hehe
You guys said earlier that this question has been around for a long time... before me!  I want to be believe that it saw combat! I even believe that it probably did, how much is the question! Your topic though, and your fails to prove because no sources yet! I admit that if you asked me to prove that the k4 saw combat, I might even have trouble with that too... with any plane, but it seems that the spity16 does have issue!
So don't blame me for this ongoing fail! :/
And my pointing out the lack of sources does not make me a troll!

Uh, about your other stuff, Mr Pongo, here is a claim!
Luft had all the aces, required pilot, plane, amo, bullet-proof glass, etc etc...
here is a source! <--- a source, they do exist!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces

Intermission time! check a neat video...  
beastie boys - intergalactic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qORYO0atB6g

[lyric1]

Switch up some.
The handbook.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/29921791/Spitfire-IX-XI-and-XVI

[Scherf]

Jesus, Lord, post links to accounts of combat, claims no links posted.

Like they say, never wrestle with pigs.

[MiloMorai]

Jesus, Lord, post links to accounts of combat, claims no links posted.

Like they say, never wrestle with pigs.

It is called selective reading.

[nrshida]

You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead 

[MiloMorai]

You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead 

I know it as: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink the water.