Author Topic: Gunnery Tips  (Read 3529 times)

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2013, 09:56:48 AM »
Do a search on these boards with "aim" as the search word and 9 out of 10 it finds will be me looking for the same thing.

I have found a new tool that helps me. Either off line against the drones or in the ta against a friend turn on the lead computing site and make a number of passes at planes concentrating on lining up the green x for the perfect hit and fire. Do this a bunch of times rolling film. Then watch the film.

The film doesn't display the green x so what you see are the site pictures your looking for. Watching the films you can concentrate on the angles you took and bow much lead you used. If you only shoot when the X is on the target during filming you will see only good shots in the film. It helps me because I know what I should see when I'm diving on a set of buffs, or lead turning a fighter in a lo yo yo.

Offline Wiley

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2013, 10:29:16 AM »
So you're basically saying "don't shoot in tight turns"?

I always couldn't grasp this "unload" thingie. I understand that this means to ease the stick or even pull it forward to get 1 or 0g when shooting.
But how to do this in actual fight? For example if I fight con in tight loops how can I ease the stick if by doing this I'll loose angle on that con?

Shooting unloaded is the ideal.  You can't always do it.  If you have to shoot while pulling G's, your bullets are going to hit below where your pipper is.  If you practice this, you can get a feel for it at different G loads.  In the situation you described above, you're basically looking at trying to pull through the guy and lay down a stream that passes over him to get hits as you're following him through the loop.

Ideally, if possible when the guy above pulls his loop and you have enough separation, you pull hard to get your nose ahead of where he is flying, and unload to send a straight stream of bullets where he's going to fly through it.  You're putting your nose ahead of him, anticipating where he's going to be for the shot.  This works particularly well with cannons, though 8x50s does alright in this kind of shot.  6x50s you may or may not knock off a piece.

Wiley.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2013, 10:40:12 AM »
So you're basically saying "don't shoot in tight turns"?

I always couldn't grasp this "unload" thingie. I understand that this means to ease the stick or even pull it forward to get 1 or 0g when shooting.
But how to do this in actual fight? For example if I fight con in tight loops how can I ease the stick if by doing this I'll loose angle on that con?

You don't need to unload to shoot while turning. If you and your target are both pulling similar Gs you will still hit a tracking shot if you have enough lead and you flight paths are aligned. If it's a crossing snap shot then unloading will help keep your fire on target.

Offline Sunka

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2013, 10:41:51 AM »
A lot of really good tips in here already. I especially like the whole turning on the lead indicator and just watching it to see where you should be aiming. A lot simpler than how I learned gunnery.

When in doubt and you're having trouble getting hits on them then just get closer. Get really close. Does their plane fill your entire gunsight? Good! Now get even closer! The closer you are, the less lead you need to use and your bullets will do maximum damage.
I would just have liked to add this,ty Latrobe for typing it for me. :rock
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2013, 06:11:39 PM »
A lot of really good tips in here already. I especially like the whole turning on the lead indicator and just watching it to see where you should be aiming. A lot simpler than how I learned gunnery.

When in doubt and you're having trouble getting hits on them then just get closer. Get really close. Does their plane fill your entire gunsight? Good! Now get even closer! The closer you are, the less lead you need to use and your bullets will do maximum damage.



   I agree with you Latrobe,now can you show me how to stop running into the plane before it goes down?            :o






      :salute

Offline Chief

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2013, 09:57:08 AM »
Try some of the staged missions for practice (see my last post in the staged mission forum).  The AI planes are not as good as their human counterparts, but a lot more challenging then the planes flying in a circle in the standard offline practice.  The AI in the on line custom arenas seem more aggressive than the offline ones.  Record all your flights when you are in game and watch the films to see why you missed or why you hit. 

You can run staged missions?
Squad: TAs AeroFighters Inc. (active) | 332nd Fighter Group (2014/2015)
Pilot: Greaser

The Battle Over The Winter Line

Offline zampheer

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2013, 04:29:09 PM »
I tried the staged, online mission published by Mustng2.  Online the AI are pretty aggressive and willl push your gunnery skills.

If you turn on the leading gun sight indicator, you might find it better to NOT shot.  Just watch the green indicator and try to get an eye for the lead required.  At least for me it lets me concentrate on the lead required instead of the kill itself.   I tend to get in a habit of over leading.

Print out his instructions and you will find it easy to setup once you have done it once.

Does this work on the offline mode?  It did not seem to when I tried it.  I was able to get use the 'tab' key to select a drone, but never saw a 'green indicator'

Offline FLS

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2013, 05:05:19 PM »
You have to turn it on in flight mode flags in Arena Settings for offline use.

Offline bustr

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2013, 05:06:37 PM »
How to enable the following for offline.

1. - Lead Computing Gunsight and Dive Bombing Sight.

2. - .001 Fuel Burn rate.

3. - 10x Ammo.

Clipboard ---> Options
Arena Setup
Environment
Arena Settings

(General Tab)
FlightModeFlags---> Change Button
Dive Bombsight {x}
Lead Computing Gunsight {x}
OK Button then Save

FuelBurnRateMulti---> Change Button
0.001
OK Button then Save

(Weapons Tab)
ManGunnerAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
PlaneAutoAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
PlaneGunAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
OK Button to each then Save

When chasing drones hit the TAB key to enable the green cross and cycle focus between the drones. When testing rockets or bombing when you hit the ordinance select key the green dive bomb cross will show up.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline morfiend

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2013, 05:07:03 PM »
Does this work on the offline mode?  It did not seem to when I tried it.  I was able to get use the 'tab' key to select a drone, but never saw a 'green indicator'


  you need to enable the LCG for offline use,goto arena settings,enviroment,select the general tab and scroll down to find "flightmodeflags" double click on that and you will see a new window open,select lead calculating gunsight then save.

  Now when you spawn press ctrl and tab together to enable friendly lock,then you just need to press tab when your selected target is in view,the crosshairs will appear,as will a box around the target A/C icon.




    :salute

Offline zampheer

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2013, 06:11:14 PM »
How to enable the following for offline

[removed for brevity]

When chasing drones hit the TAB key to enable the green cross and cycle focus between the drones. When testing rockets or bombing when you hit the ordinance select key the green dive bomb cross will show up.

Thank you Bustr.  That's a bit archane but now it's working.  Holy Crap I have not been leading nearly enough!

Offline Tinkles

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2013, 04:03:58 AM »
How to enable the following for offline.

1. - Lead Computing Gunsight and Dive Bombing Sight.

2. - .001 Fuel Burn rate.

3. - 10x Ammo.

Clipboard ---> Options
Arena Setup
Environment
Arena Settings

(General Tab)
FlightModeFlags---> Change Button
Dive Bombsight {x}
Lead Computing Gunsight {x}
OK Button then Save

FuelBurnRateMulti---> Change Button
0.001
OK Button then Save

(Weapons Tab)
ManGunnerAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
PlaneAutoAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
PlaneGunAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
OK Button to each then Save

When chasing drones hit the TAB key to enable the green cross and cycle focus between the drones. When testing rockets or bombing when you hit the ordinance select key the green dive bomb cross will show up.

Interesting, didn't know we had a feature like this.

*Rubs hands together*

 :t
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Offline bustr

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2013, 04:32:07 PM »
Thank you Bustr.  That's a bit archane but now it's working.  Holy Crap I have not been leading nearly enough!

This time it's Hitech's fault. He could just as easily make a clipboard sub page specifically with offline options as check boxes to aid your personal training efforts against the drones. And like the one responder, most are then very surprised how much lead is really needed to hit anything.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Kingpin

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2013, 11:46:58 PM »
I was asked by a trainer in my squad to put a gunnery course together for squad training, which I did.  I believe it was helpful, but I will leave that for others to attest to.  One of the FIRST things I did was demonstrate the nature of the bullet stream(s) using the ".target" command, which I haven't seen mentioned here yet.  I believe the .target command can be VERY useful for learning and practicing gunnery, especially when learning to shoot in a new plane.  Understanding the ballistics of your armament and where your bullet stream is going with your convergence settings is quite useful, but something we don't always think about.  Each plane in the game has a surprisingly different bullet stream, even with convergence settings exactly the same.  (More on that later.)

For those who don't know, typing the ".target" command in the buffer brings up a target that stays in place (moves with you) relative to your position.  It's postion relative to you is controlled using the syntax as follows:

.target [distance in yards][space][bearing in degrees][space][elevation in degrees above/below level]

Examples:

.target 325 = brings up a target 325 yards from your position, due north (by default, since you put in 0 degrees), level to you (0 degrees elevation change)

.target 325 90 = adding a space and the 90 puts the target at 325 yards away, but now due east (90-degrees) from your position
.target 325 180 = now at 325 yards and south

.target 325 270 45 = this target is at 325 yards, due west, elevated 45 degrees above level
.target 325 0 -30 =  this target is at 325 yards, due north declined 30 degrees below level (useful for practicing tail gunning in a bomber, by the way)

.target 0 = removes and resets/clears the target
(Note: the target also clears itself of hits after 1000 rounds hit)

Here's what the target looks like.



In my next post I will show how I think this is useful.

<S>
Ryno

« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 01:43:52 AM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline Kingpin

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Re: Gunnery Tips
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2013, 12:15:46 AM »
You can use .target to see (and learn to visualize) where your bullets are going, especially at different distances.  Below is a short burst (about 1 second) hitting at a convergence of 325 yards in a Corsair.  The target is set to 325 to show the TIGHTEST bullet concentration you will get with 6 50-cals.  This shot was actually taken ON THE GROUND, which means NO G-load or nose-bounce affecting the bullet pattern.  Notice that the bullet pattern is actually about 10 FEET in diameter.  That is about the tightest concentration you can expect.  The photo below that shows the 41' wingspan (two target circles wide) of a corsair for comparison to how big the bullet concentration is.







If you practice this while flying, you can try firing at different aim points on the target while maneuvering.  Start by firing at the middle "bullseye".  Then maneuver to fire at the outside ring at the 12-o'clock, 3-o'clock, 6-o'clock and then 9-o'clock positions as quickly as you can.  You should be able to complete all 5 shots with 2-second burst to each in about 20 seconds or so.  I call this exercise "shooting around the clock".  You might notice that your bullet patterns are wider or look more like "slashes" than circles, meaning you have some nose bounce, yaw or aren't "G unloaded" when firing.

I have new squadmates do this exercise to see if their bullet concentrations are good and help them to diagnose problems with stick scaling (especially rudder).  Here is a decent example from a squaddy's screenshot doing this exercise with some good hits (a bit low on the 3-o'clock) and I think he shot the center twice.



Another very important point here about bullet streams is that aircraft with wing-mounted guns can be thought of to actually have TWO bullet streams (one from each wing) that only pass through gunsight pipper right at convergence.  So, as you get further inside and outside of convergence, the more you have TWO separate bullet streams.

There was some mention above about how hard it is to hit at dead six in close.  This is one of the reasons.  Your aiming point actually changes dramatically based on the range, even in close.  I see a lot of people struggle with close in dead six shots because they are actually aiming TOO LOW.  The next two shots illustrate the TWO separate bullet streams at HALF convergence (in this case half of 325 yards).

Note how different the 3 bullet patterns are all BELOW the horizontal line, even though I was aiming exactly on the horizontal line.  Each plane has a different bullet stream level though, even though they are all firing 6 50-cals.  Remember, the bullet streams are RISING from the wing level to the eye level (pipper point) of the pilot.  So at a firing distance inside convergence your bullets haven't risen to the pipper yet.  This means if you have the pipper on your target in close, you are likely shooting slightly UNDER the target.  I see a lot of new players frustrated by what appears to be "bullets passing through without hitting."  This is probably what they are seeing.  In close, the bullets go UNDER the target and continue to rise after they pass appearing to pass right through the target, but really going UNDER him.

As you can see, the Jug has the flattest bullet stream, but is still a few feet below the aim point at half convergence.  Due to it's wing design, the Corsair's bullet stream has a full 7 feet to rise to the pipper, so at half convergence, the bullets are about 3.5 feet too low yet.  If you know this, you can AIM SLIGHTLY ABOVE YOUR TARGET at close range.


Corsair bullet streams at HALF convergence (target at 162.5 yards):




The same holds true for ranges BEYOND convergence.  At 650 yards, for example, the two bullet streams have crossed (at convergence) and are now headed AWAY from each other and become 2 wide bullet patterns.  (Sorry, I don't have a screenshot of this, but test it yourself and you'll see what I mean.)  Set the target at 650 and fire at the middle.  Note the bullet spread.

Once you understand the above, it can really help you with sight picture as well.  (More to follow on that...)

<S>
Ryno
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 01:50:29 AM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.