Author Topic: Global.....Cooling?  (Read 1928 times)

Offline pembquist

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2013, 04:24:02 PM »
Does anybody know how much energy it takes to liquify and transport natural gas? Is it on par with extracting oil from tar sands or what?

Pies not kicks.

Offline Changeup

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2013, 04:26:34 PM »
Does anybody know how much energy it takes to liquify and transport natural gas? Is it on par with extracting oil from tar sands or what?



It depends on how far it's moved down a pipeline and how long the pipeline is.  Compressor stations are inline and constantly keep it moving. 
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2013, 04:39:24 PM »
wrong about this one.  it's all about money and somebody is paying somebody to stop something. 

semp

I don't think so.  Because your and my beliefs of how economics work are so completely different, I would love to have you read Hazlitt's book and then be able to discuss it with you.  Would you be willing to read it and chat if I sent you a copy?  If you're up for it, PM me your physical mail address, and I'll send you a copy.  I'd be willing to reciprocate by reading some book of your choice.

Here's how I see it.  Companies work to make money.  In a free-market system, they can do that only one way:  by making products that people want to buy.  If people don't want to buy those products, the company doesn't make money and goes out of business.  That dynamic means that companies do their best to figure out what you want and to give it to you at a price that is worth it to you.  This dynamic working over generations is what has lifted mankind out of poverty and serfdom into what we have today (at least in the countries that have availed themselves of it).

Now, it is possible that a country sets up its government with the power to regulate companies out of business and to take one group's money and give it out to favored others.  In that environment, companies can make money in a way additional to making products that people want to buy:  they can appeal to government to get money and appeal to government to pass regulation that harms competitors.  This is not a free market; it distorts the free market; it is the source of much corruption; and it can result in harming the process of products and services becoming ever cheaper and more plentiful.

Fortunately in the US, crony capitalism and corruption haven't overtaken all businesses or, for some affected by it, the entire business.  It is far from optimal, and I hope to see it reduced in the future instead of increasing (which is what it seems to be doing currently), but we at least still do not have the same problems that the Soviet Union, Argentina, North Korea, China prior to market reforms, India prior to market reforms, Venezuela, and numerous other countries throughout history have had with respect to the function of their economies and businesses.

Quote
only ones with enough money to ante are corporations.

The US government has vastly more money, power, and resources than any corporation.  That's why some companies have lobbyists -- to appeal to the government in an effort to get some of that power and resource applied in their favor.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2013, 05:13:01 PM »
Brooke I agree.  Problem is since fuel is big business the energy companies would raise the price to US consumers because of lower availability if we export it.

One thing I've learned in the many years in management is that......greed....yup the company has to make money.  Fuel exporters would benefit financially in two ways.

Selling to foreign customers, and squeezing the American Public.  Always has been that way and I assume it will continue.  Have to make the shareholders' happy first.

Alas.....that will be the downfall of mankind in the end.  What's in it for me is the ultimate question, not how many will benefit.

Howdy, Hajo! <S>

I think that aspect of the free market has resulted in enormous positive results for mankind, not its downfall.

What you aren't counting when you describe selling to foreign customers is that those foreign customers are paying money for the product.  That money goes to the people in the company, its shareholders, to the companies that sell things to that company, into the nation's economy, and is an addition to the nation's GDP and its financial well being.

Exports are good for a nation, not bad.  It is especially good for the US, as we as a nation are in debt.  The only way to get out of that debt is to increase exports.  Countries that grow economically export a lot:  the US post WWII, China now, Germany, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore (countries that went from ruin post WWII to prosperity in a generation), etc.

In the particular case of natural gas, exporting it would indeed increase US prices for natural gas.  But only as part of a process whereby lots of money is coming into the US from other countries who are buying the natural gas.  This adds profit into the US.  Also, since natural gas is then more valuable, US companies have incentive to invest in activities related to it, which is not a great incentive right now.

Consider computers.  What if at some earlier point in US history government regulation meant that computers could not be priced at anything other than 5 cents.  Do you think that would be better or worse for you as a consumer of computers?  At a first level, it sounds great.  But what really would happen is that there would have been almost no computer industry, no investment into it in the US, no supply of good computer systems, etc. compared to what really happened.

Also, whenever thinking that selling restrictions are good, consider it applied to one's own profession.  What if there was a regulation that a manager could be paid at most $20,000 per year.  That might seem like it would be great for anyone who hires managers or for the population overall (as they wouldn't be paying as part of product prices anything more for managers).  But in reality, what would happen is that the management job would end up turning into a job that is worth $20k per year, as most people who could do the job at a proficiency worth more than $20k per year would go to a job that pays them more than $20k per year.  Capping manager salary at $20k per year would result in an inefficiency and decrease compared to a free market for manager salaries.

All of these sorts of things are covered very well in Sowell's and Hazlitt's books on economics.  They really are great.  I think that they are two of the best and most-important books in the world and highly recommend that anyone read them.  "Basic Economics," by Sowell is longer, and "Economics in One Lesson," by Hazlitt is best if you want the briefest book possible.

There have been societies based on the principle not of free markets but on how many will benefit.  That is one of the tenants of communism.  There are a lot of reasons communism didn't work, but one of them definitely is that "to each according to need, from each according to ability" doesn't promote efficiency or hard work; and another is that deciding how many will benefit is not an easy thing to figure out.  Central planners can't figure that out, and there are problems with who is deciding what "benefit" means and who should get it.  But a free market is very, very good at figuring that out -- that's one of its main functions.

Offline NatCigg

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2013, 06:17:23 PM »
George Carlin On Global Warming Scam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGOBm2J4tn0

"It could be the answer to our age old philosophical questions.

People: Why are we here?

Earth: Plastic. amazinhunks."

 :rofl

Offline Megalodon

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« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 09:49:24 PM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline Changeup

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2013, 11:51:59 PM »
I don't think so.  Because your and my beliefs of how economics work are so completely different, I would love to have you read Hazlitt's book and then be able to discuss it with you.  Would you be willing to read it and chat if I sent you a copy?  If you're up for it, PM me your physical mail address, and I'll send you a copy.  I'd be willing to reciprocate by reading some book of your choice.

Here's how I see it.  Companies work to make money.  In a free-market system, they can do that only one way:  by making products that people want to buy.  If people don't want to buy those products, the company doesn't make money and goes out of business.  That dynamic means that companies do their best to figure out what you want and to give it to you at a price that is worth it to you.  This dynamic working over generations is what has lifted mankind out of poverty and serfdom into what we have today (at least in the countries that have availed themselves of it).

Now, it is possible that a country sets up its government with the power to regulate companies out of business and to take one group's money and give it out to favored others.  In that environment, companies can make money in a way additional to making products that people want to buy:  they can appeal to government to get money and appeal to government to pass regulation that harms competitors.  This is not a free market; it distorts the free market; it is the source of much corruption; and it can result in harming the process of products and services becoming ever cheaper and more plentiful.

Fortunately in the US, crony capitalism and corruption haven't overtaken all businesses or, for some affected by it, the entire business.  It is far from optimal, and I hope to see it reduced in the future instead of increasing (which is what it seems to be doing currently), but we at least still do not have the same problems that the Soviet Union, Argentina, North Korea, China prior to market reforms, India prior to market reforms, Venezuela, and numerous other countries throughout history have had with respect to the function of their economies and businesses.

The US government has vastly more money, power, and resources than any corporation.  That's why some companies have lobbyists -- to appeal to the government in an effort to get some of that power and resource applied in their favor.

Agreed completely.  However, the most regulated industries or industries that have shown a propensity to corrupt and deserve some regulation (pharmaceutical, oil, financial) are the ones that have, need and deploy lobbyists more regularly.  There are hundreds of thousands of good businesses that operate in the periphery of those industries.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2013, 12:04:23 PM »
Agreed completely.  However, the most regulated industries or industries that have shown a propensity to corrupt and deserve some regulation (pharmaceutical, oil, financial) are the ones that have, need and deploy lobbyists more regularly.  There are hundreds of thousands of good businesses that operate in the periphery of those industries.

It can also be that lobbying and corruption are because of regulation.  A government that has the power to regulate you or your competitors out of business and that has the power to gift you with a lot of money is going to be the target of great efforts at influence by any means.  Take away government's power to wreck businesses and to give away money, and much lobbying and corruption would be completely eliminated.

The same dynamic was true in the times of the Greeks and after them the Romans (the dynamic of people working to influence or to control government because of its power to regulate, tax, and reallocate vast amounts of money).  That was one of the main things that caused the downfall of both civilizations.

Today, we do not have national debates about the affordability or availability of microwave ovens, computers, carpeting, paint, window glass, building supplies, Big Macs, chicken, beef, air conditioners, heating units, cars, clothes, shoes, plastic knick knacks, silverware, couches, chairs, bread, beer, car tires, books, telephones, answering machines, home generators, hair dryers, light bulbs, and so on.  All of them are produced by unregulated or lightly regulated businesses subject mostly just to a free market, where companies are incentivized by one thing:  selling me what I want to buy at a price I'm willing to pay.

In contrast, healthcare is one of the most-regulated business areas in the nation, and it is not very affordable.

I feel that, if we significantly cut the regulatory burden in healthcare and opened it up more to the free market, in 20 years, the level of healthcare that is best in the nation right now would be so cheap and so available that we would have about as much national debate about affordability and availability of healthcare as we do about affordability and availability of Big Macs, pizza, microwaves, carpeting, air conditioners, Xboxes, etc.

Offline NatCigg

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2013, 02:12:19 PM »
It can also be that lobbying and corruption are because of regulation.  A government that has the power to regulate you or your competitors out of business and that has the power to gift you with a lot of money is going to be the target of great efforts at influence by any means.  Take away government's power to wreck businesses and to give away money, and much lobbying and corruption would be completely eliminated.

The same dynamic was true in the times of the Greeks and after them the Romans (the dynamic of people working to influence or to control government because of its power to regulate, tax, and reallocate vast amounts of money).  That was one of the main things that caused the downfall of both civilizations.

Today, we do not have national debates about the affordability or availability of microwave ovens, computers, carpeting, paint, window glass, building supplies, Big Macs, chicken, beef, air conditioners, heating units, cars, clothes, shoes, plastic knick knacks, silverware, couches, chairs, bread, beer, car tires, books, telephones, answering machines, home generators, hair dryers, light bulbs, and so on.  All of them are produced by unregulated or lightly regulated businesses subject mostly just to a free market, where companies are incentivized by one thing:  selling me what I want to buy at a price I'm willing to pay.

In contrast, healthcare is one of the most-regulated business areas in the nation, and it is not very affordable.

I feel that, if we significantly cut the regulatory burden in healthcare and opened it up more to the free market, in 20 years, the level of healthcare that is best in the nation right now would be so cheap and so available that we would have about as much national debate about affordability and availability of healthcare as we do about affordability and availability of Big Macs, pizza, microwaves, carpeting, air conditioners, Xboxes, etc.

What would a good economist think about health insurance and its effects on the cost of heath care?

Offline Changeup

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #99 on: November 11, 2013, 02:14:32 PM »
It can also be that lobbying and corruption are because of regulation.  A government that has the power to regulate you or your competitors out of business and that has the power to gift you with a lot of money is going to be the target of great efforts at influence by any means.  Take away government's power to wreck businesses and to give away money, and much lobbying and corruption would be completely eliminated.

The same dynamic was true in the times of the Greeks and after them the Romans (the dynamic of people working to influence or to control government because of its power to regulate, tax, and reallocate vast amounts of money).  That was one of the main things that caused the downfall of both civilizations.

Today, we do not have national debates about the affordability or availability of microwave ovens, computers, carpeting, paint, window glass, building supplies, Big Macs, chicken, beef, air conditioners, heating units, cars, clothes, shoes, plastic knick knacks, silverware, couches, chairs, bread, beer, car tires, books, telephones, answering machines, home generators, hair dryers, light bulbs, and so on.  All of them are produced by unregulated or lightly regulated businesses subject mostly just to a free market, where companies are incentivized by one thing:  selling me what I want to buy at a price I'm willing to pay.

In contrast, healthcare is one of the most-regulated business areas in the nation, and it is not very affordable.

I feel that, if we significantly cut the regulatory burden in healthcare and opened it up more to the free market, in 20 years, the level of healthcare that is best in the nation right now would be so cheap and so available that we would have about as much national debate about affordability and availability of healthcare as we do about affordability and availability of Big Macs, pizza, microwaves, carpeting, air conditioners, Xboxes, etc.

I cannot think of 1 regulation that was designed to cripple a legitimate business.  Please give examples along with their intent and strategy.

I'm fairly certain that when regulation is examined, you'll find that it's very much causal..   Look no further than:

Dot.com bubble
Housing derivatives bubble
Big pharma spending billions on Drs to prescribe medication that on the whole isn't particularly necessary
Commodities exclusion from Hedge funds
Currency trading limitations

Regulation 99% of the time does not come before notorious violations but I am willing to hear your examples and the strategies those regulators employed.
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

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Offline Motherland

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #100 on: November 11, 2013, 02:27:01 PM »
The best way to stay updated and informed about science is to ignore every single word that's printed or spoken in the media about science.

Offline Ardy123

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #101 on: November 11, 2013, 06:06:07 PM »
I cannot think of 1 regulation that was designed to cripple a legitimate business.  Please give examples along with their intent and strategy.

I'm fairly certain that when regulation is examined, you'll find that it's very much causal..   Look no further than:

Dot.com bubble
Housing derivatives bubble
Big pharma spending billions on Drs to prescribe medication that on the whole isn't particularly necessary
Commodities exclusion from Hedge funds
Currency trading limitations

Regulation 99% of the time does not come before notorious violations but I am willing to hear your examples and the strategies those regulators employed.

This  :aok

In almost all cases, regulation or (even deregulation), the government is the tail of the dog. Always, its the last to change and usually in response to actions/behaviors of industry. Just as industry tries to capture the market (sometimes by less-than-honest means and hence the need for smart regulation), politicians want to capture votes knowing that inaction on wildly publicized misbehavior of industry may jeopardize their job. The only exceptions I can think of are related to war. I would go as far to say that the current brand of corruption is only plausible because mainstream media is too busy pumping out 'stories' with the intent of providing people 'political cognitive affirmation' instead of reporting on facts and exposing whats going on.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 06:12:21 PM by Ardy123 »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2013, 07:24:38 PM »
What would a good economist think about health insurance and its effects on the cost of heath care?

Some that I think are good.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/08/28/risky_business_115225.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2013/09/05/how-thomas-sowell-long-ago-predicted-obamacares-looming-failure/

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/yes-mr-president-free-market-can-fix-health-care

In our country, we have car insurance, house insurance, life insurance, etc. that people are mostly happy with and that don't seem to greatly distort the price of cars, houses, etc.  Those industries are not hugely hampered by regulation.

Offline Changeup

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2013, 08:03:10 PM »
Some that I think are good.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/08/28/risky_business_115225.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2013/09/05/how-thomas-sowell-long-ago-predicted-obamacares-looming-failure/

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/yes-mr-president-free-market-can-fix-health-care

In our country, we have car insurance, house insurance, life insurance, etc. that people are mostly happy with and that don't seem to greatly distort the price of cars, houses, etc.  Those industries are not hugely hampered by regulation.

Looking at the tables for these markets of insurance...one thing stands out.







COMPETITION...........about 150%-300% more than most industries, certainly more than the 8 major oil players and the 37 major pharma's.  Competition keeps prices down and markets in balance.  The insurance companies are bookies.  You're betting you crash and they're betting you don't.  Vegas wasn't built on winners...neither was the insurance markets.  BTW, these markets were created, for the most part, BY LAW.  Insurance, back in the day, used to be optional.  If you wanted the risk, you could take it.

Someone or something forced people to buy homeowner and car insurance right?  I'd call that regulation by proxy...but in this case, as most, it was GOOD for the industry, not bad.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Global.....Cooling?
« Reply #104 on: November 11, 2013, 08:17:00 PM »
I cannot think of 1 regulation that was designed to cripple a legitimate business.  Please give examples along with their intent and strategy.

Your demand for exact specifics is a lot of work on my part.  I know of many (oil/power industry, steel, financial, farming, semiconductor, health industry -- a lot are of the form of regulation that helps a very large business to keep out smaller competitors or new upstarts) but not in the detail that you will likely demand, so I'll have to look some things up.  In the meantime, here are a few off the top of my head in enough detail or enough prominence that they are easily looked up.

National Labor Relations Board working to preclude Boeing from opening a factory in South Carolina.  Intent and strategy:  to stop Boeing from going into a right-to-work state in order for administration to favor unions that supported its election.

FDA's regulations and agenda to eliminate CLIA's oversight of laboratory-developed tests.  This has and will continue to drive CLIA labs out of business.  Intent and strategy:  FDA does not like CLIA labs outside the FDA's realm of control, so the FDA has been working over a long period of time to erode that.  (This is my field of business that I have direct experience in, including discussions on this very topic with the FDA.)

Government putting online poker out of business.  Intent and strategy:  obvious.

New Hampshire government exercising eminent domain against a person's home to give the property to a private developer to build a hotel.  Intent and strategy:  obvious.

Quote
I'm fairly certain that when regulation is examined, you'll find that it's very much causal..   

Certainly a lot of regulation is a reaction to something, maybe a poor choice, but definitely a reaction.  A lot of regulation is because of someone's good intent, again maybe a poor choice, but definitely good intent.  I suspect that the majority of regulation is because of reaction or some good intention -- so we are probably in agreement on that part.

But there definitely is regulation designed primarily to benefit a group that is lobbying for it, and cover reasons (that are not the main intent) are thought up for why it is a good bit of regulation.  I have some experience there.

Quote
Look no further than:

Dot.com bubble
Housing derivatives bubble
Big pharma spending billions on Drs to prescribe medication that on the whole isn't particularly necessary
Commodities exclusion from Hedge funds
Currency trading limitations

Indeed.  Also, consider the regulations that helped bring about those fiascos.  You can then consider those prior assisting regulations as either a counter example, or you could say that they, in turn, were the reaction to some previous condition, which is also a valid way to look at it.  That's not the main point I'm trying to make, though.

Just because a regulation is a reaction to something does not mean that it is immune to manipulation for a particular business's or industry's benefit at the detriment to other businesses or industries.  That is the soul of lobbying -- getting the powerful government to give you a favor that helps you, not your competitors.

My point is that a government powerful enough to pass regulation that helps or harms you and powerful enough to take your money or to give you other people's money is a government that *will* be lobbied or (in the case of Greece and Rome and numerous examples between now and then) will be desirable to take control of for one's own benefit even at the detriment of other citizens.

Quote
Regulation 99% of the time does not come before notorious violations.

Says you!  ;)