Real global cooling

[Brooke]

Sorry, guys.  I strayed off topic in "Global cooling", which then got closed for being too political.  (Folks there were completely civil and respectful, so well done on an excellent environment for discussion.)

Here's a topic to continue global cooling, and I promise not to stray.

Last topics in the global cooling discussion which were on topic were nuclear power and liquefied natural gas.

Pemquist had asked "Does anybody know how much energy it takes to liquefy and transport natural gas? Is it on par with extracting oil from tar sands or what?"

I think that LNG is a lot cheaper than tar sands.  Getting the natural gas is inexpensive.  In fact, it used to be considered nearly a waste product of drilling for oil and mostly burned off at the well head.  Moving it around as gas is not very expensive, but of course the energy density of LNG is much greater than as gas.  It does cost energy to liquefy the gas and costs money to keep it in insulated containers and cooled, but it's not too bad.

Overall, we can look at the cost per million BTU to compare to other fuels.  Currently, natural gas is $3.6/MMBtu.  LNG is about $5.0/MMBtu.  Crude oil (brent) is $106/bbl, which is $106/5.8 × 10^6 BTU = $18/MMBtu.

[Brooke]

Then there is the cost of gasoline, which is higher still.  Gasoline where I live is about $3.3/gal, which is $3.3/gal * 1 gal/114,000 BTU * 10^6 BTU/MMBtu = $29/MMBtu.

So, LNG is only 17% the cost of gasoline (on an energy equivalency basis), and natural gas (non liquefied) is 12% the cost of gasoline.

Since you can run lots of things on natural gas (cars, trucks, buses, fork lifts, power plants, generators, etc.), because it is a small fraction of the cost of gasoline, it will probably increasingly be used as a fuel for those things.  The problem as pointed out earlier is currently distribution.  But that will get solved incrementally, first by particular companies converting their own trucks to LNG or using compressed natural gas (CNG) for their forklifts, say.

[wpeters]

Then there is the cost of gasoline, which is higher still.  Gasoline where I live is about $3.3/gal, which is $3.3/gal * 1 gal/114,000 BTU * 10^6 BTU/MMBtu = $29/MMBtu.

So, LNG is only 17% the cost of gasoline (on an energy equivalency basis), and natural gas (non liquefied) is 12% the cost of gasoline.

Since you can run lots of things on natural gas (cars, trucks, buses, fork lifts, power plants, generators, etc.), because it is a small fraction of the cost of gasoline, it will probably increasingly be used as a fuel for those things.  The problem as pointed out earlier is currently distribution.  But that will get solved incrementally, first by particular companies converting their own trucks to LNG or using compressed natural gas (CNG) for their forklifts, say.

This isnt going to reach the cheapest point till the strictly start making engines that run just on Natural Gas.   Right now tho get is converted is expensive

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Then there is the cost of gasoline, which is higher still.  Gasoline where I live is about $3.3/gal, which is $3.3/gal * 1 gal/114,000 BTU * 10^6 BTU/MMBtu = $29/MMBtu.

So, LNG is only 17% the cost of gasoline (on an energy equivalency basis), and natural gas (non liquefied) is 12% the cost of gasoline.

Since you can run lots of things on natural gas (cars, trucks, buses, fork lifts, power plants, generators, etc.), because it is a small fraction of the cost of gasoline, it will probably increasingly be used as a fuel for those things.  The problem as pointed out earlier is currently distribution.  But that will get solved incrementally, first by particular companies converting their own trucks to LNG or using compressed natural gas (CNG) for their forklifts, say.

CNG is commonly used for forklifts and buses here in Europe already. Almost all forklifts which work indoors use the stuff due to the low emissions and lack of carbon monoxide in exhaust.

[Ardy123]

Then there is the cost of gasoline, which is higher still.  Gasoline where I live is about $3.3/gal, which is $3.3/gal * 1 gal/114,000 BTU * 10^6 BTU/MMBtu = $29/MMBtu.

So, LNG is only 17% the cost of gasoline (on an energy equivalency basis), and natural gas (non liquefied) is 12% the cost of gasoline.

Since you can run lots of things on natural gas (cars, trucks, buses, fork lifts, power plants, generators, etc.), because it is a small fraction of the cost of gasoline, it will probably increasingly be used as a fuel for those things.  The problem as pointed out earlier is currently distribution.  But that will get solved incrementally, first by particular companies converting their own trucks to LNG or using compressed natural gas (CNG) for their forklifts, say.

Many fleet vehicles use ngas today but I don't believe its LNG. The problem is that it takes a long time to fill a tank. It its easier to target specific sub-segments at this time, such as trains, buses, fleet vehicles etc...

[ROC]

There is more to it than simply the cost of the fuel.  There are other long term effects that have to be considered as well.  One example often overlooked when factoring the cost of natural gasses vs gasoline and diesel is the hit the engine takes.  I used to work as a diesel engine mechanic many years ago, a great friend still owns the company and we discuss this often.
His company thrives on the public buses that use the natural gas.  The engines fry and heads are destroyed far earlier than should occur in a diesel environment. From what I understand, they generate a higher, and dryer heat.
So factor the cost savings and the emission gains by natural gas against the repair costs and emissions created in the transportation of the replacement parts and you don't have quite the savings in fuel cost or the environment many people think they are getting.

[smoe]

There is more to it than simply the cost of the fuel.  There are other long term effects that have to be considered as well.  One example often overlooked when factoring the cost of natural gasses vs gasoline and diesel is the hit the engine takes.  I used to work as a diesel engine mechanic many years ago, a great friend still owns the company and we discuss this often.
His company thrives on the public buses that use the natural gas.  The engines fry and heads are destroyed far earlier than should occur in a diesel environment. From what I understand, they generate a higher, and dryer heat.
So factor the cost savings and the emission gains by natural gas against the repair costs and emissions created in the transportation of the replacement parts and you don't have quite the savings in fuel cost or the environment many people think they are getting.

Engines can be designed for one fuel, but can be altered to except others with the possibility of damaging some parts.

I remember hearing that the old leaded gas engines would suffer if non-leaded gas were used. Supposedly the lead in the gas helps lubricate valve push rods and such.

[zack1234]

I thought fossil fuels were used as a barginning  chip

And thus the talk about types of fuel is the same as how many angels can sit on top of a pin

[Dragon]

Judging by the $0.40 jump in gasoline price yesterday, it appears someone didn't play their chips well and has little chance of getting Angel to sit on his pin.

[Meatwad]

Finally at 2.98 over here

[zack1234]

Get a smaller car

[Bodhi]

Why are you focused on "global cooling" and a fossil fuel driven approach to achieve it?  There is no data (that has not been monkeyed with or is not loaded with sampling error) that supports a man made global warming trend. 

[zack1234]

Yes there is

[nrshida]

Why are you focused on "global cooling" and a fossil fuel driven approach to achieve it?  There is no data (that has not been monkeyed with or is not loaded with sampling error) that supports a man made global warming trend. 

You're a scientist are you?

[SlidingHorn]

Why are you focused on "global cooling" and a fossil fuel driven approach to achieve it?  There is no data (that has not been monkeyed with or is not loaded with sampling error) that supports a man made global warming trend. 

I'm curious: How many peer reviewed papers have you published on the topic?