comparing

[Skuzzy]

Color me confused, but BnZ's you show our chart comparison for the P51B, not the D, then you later compare the D to the P47.

[Dragon]

JUGS rule!   


 

[BnZs]

Color me confused, but BnZ's you show our chart comparison for the P51B, not the D, then you later compare the D to the P47.

I just brought up Mosq's data on the P-51D vs. P47M because it showed the 47M with no flaps turning a slightly smaller radius than the P-51D with one notch, which is exceedingly odd. It may be a typo on the tester's part.

I'm not trying to argue that the P-51 series could out-turn Zeros or even 109s here, but its abilities relative the Jug seem odd given the wing loadings, power loadings, and the opinions of pilots who got to fly both.

[pops04]

I personally think that the P51D has been gutted. The pony cant outrun anything anymore the bullets drop way to  soon. I mean at 600 I have to aim from the 6 oclock position I have to aim at the top of the cockpit to hit the wings. The damn pony cant take any damage like it used to. Now one ping from a field ack and your damn wing comes off. Pony used to be the best bird in here now it is just a closed cockpit I16

[BnZs]

I personally think that the P51D has been gutted. The pony cant outrun anything anymore the bullets drop way to  soon. I mean at 600 I have to aim from the 6 oclock position I have to aim at the top of the cockpit to hit the wings. The damn pony cant take any damage like it used to. Now one ping from a field ack and your damn wing comes off. Pony used to be the best bird in here now it is just a closed cockpit I16

Go home Pops, you're drunk.

[Changeup]

Is this the same show people use to justify the "cobra", "tail slide", "tail whip?"  maneuver?  still haven't gotten an answer from HTC on that one.   

Showed the Cavanaugh flight museum curator and their 51 pilot ride-giver those three moves in the 109 and both said, NO Freakin Way.  I showed them a film of YOU low and slow in a CHOG (you killed me, lol) and they both said NFW....all four moves put too much stress on the airframe.  The guys refurbishing the P40C that were there said they wouldn't want to see either plane after the maneuvers were complete.

Now, all said that was their opinion.  It could possibly be done but counter-controlling the air surfaces is not a great idea in ac that are that heavy.

Their words, not mine.

[diaster]

Seems to me, i remember hearing that the D-Pony was the top killer of WWII. That it was the best, because it had a 1500 mile combat radious. It could fight for hours on station while the 109 had only ninety minutes. It was used typically as a BnZ. But sometimes when being picked (low and slow) they tried crazy stuff because living depended on it! The 109 pilots by the time the D model was introduced were not the highly experienced ones from early on, due to attrition (battle of Briton - Eastern Front). As an example Eric Hartman (Bubi) (highest scoring ace of all time, 362 kills) out flew 4 or perhaps it was 5, P51Ds in his E model 109 till he was out of gas and jumped out.
The P51 pilots were so impressed that they flew by his chute not to strafe it, but to salute him with a WingWave. By the way, Eric standard tactic, was out of the sun and on a low slow enemy's six and not firing till he was practically on top of his target. He damaged many of his planes from pieces of his kills.

As in all things, experience and being an expert in your craft is better than a perfect tool. Ask any golfer!

IMHO

[diaster]

If i could request any sort or "remodel" it would be to make the ground vehicle *not icon) easier to see. All the gun camera footage i have seen the ground targets are quite easy to pick out. I can see vehicles quite easily when I fly (53 years old). I still struggle in game (36" monitor) (excellent video card and quad i7)to find an ack or tank without being practically on top of it and then getting shot to he!!
as are the phrases, "where is that ^^&%", "mark him for me" "can you strafe him then i will drop" etc

again IMHO

[BnZs]

Seems to me, i remember hearing that the D-Pony was the top killer of WWII.

You heard incorrectly. The U.S. plane with the highest k/d ratio of the war was the F6F Hellcat. And the Jug probably did more to kill the Luftwaffe in the ETO than the P-51. This does not mean that the Hellcat or Jug were "better" than the P-51 necessarily, but that is how it played out factually.

That it was the best, because it had a 1500 mile combat radious. It could fight for hours on station while the 109 had only ninety minutes. It was used typically as a BnZ. But sometimes when being picked (low and slow) they tried crazy stuff because living depended on it!

Every plane and pilot made a surprise attack from altitude when it could be done. But it could not always be done. Familiar with Clarence "Bud" Anderson's most famous account of a dogfight?

The 109 pilots by the time the D model was introduced were not the highly experienced ones from early on, due to attrition (battle of Briton - Eastern Front).

This is true. However, the 109 pilot Anderson out-turned and out-climbed in his P-51B@~30K altitude per the above-mentioned account was *not* an inexperienced dogfighter, but the opposite. Anderson credited his plane's performance for the victory.

[BnZs]

GVers were whining about the AH "pilot" having normal 20/20 vision when it came to spotting multi-ton tanks in open fields, so the icon was shortened.

If i could request any sort or "remodel" it would be to make the ground vehicle *not icon) easier to see. All the gun camera footage i have seen the ground targets are quite easy to pick out. I can see vehicles quite easily when I fly (53 years old). I still struggle in game (36" monitor) (excellent video card and quad i7)to find an ack or tank without being practically on top of it and then getting shot to he!!
as are the phrases, "where is that ^^&%", "mark him for me" "can you strafe him then i will drop" etc

again IMHO

[BnZs]

The most inane maneuver one sees a lot of IMO is that rapid oscillation between negative and positive Gs that a lot of people do in place of proper BFM gun defense. Alas, it can be a rather effective shot spoiler, but the idea that the pilot would be physically able to stand it is suspect. It would probably feel like this  Not a part of real guns defense as taught for a good reason.

[diaster]

You heard incorrectly. The U.S. plane with the highest k/d ratio of the war was the F6F Hellcat. And the Jug probably did more to kill the Luftwaffe in the ETO than the P-51. This does not mean that the Hellcat or Jug were "better" than the P-51 necessarily, but that is how it played out factually.
Every plane and pilot made a surprise attack from altitude when it could be done. But it could not always be done. Familiar with Clarence "Bud" Anderson's most famous account of a dogfight?

This is true. However, the 109 pilot Anderson out-turned and out-climbed in his P-51B@~30K altitude per the above-mentioned account was *not* an inexperienced dogfighter, but the opposite. Anderson credited his plane's performance for the victory.

maybe i should have been clearer. The P51 accounted for more enemy kills than any other single allied aircraft (not k/d), possibly due to the fact that as it became more mass produced the skill level of the enemy was waning. Obvioussly there were still skilled luftwaffe pilots around till after the war, Galland, hartmann and others. and yes a super bird will give an advantage to a lesser skilled pilot. even in aces high spixteens are a nuisance. But all else being equal or at least close, the skill wins. more on 109 vs P51B this time

 While flying "top cover", Hartmann attacked a flight of four P-51s over Bucharest, Romania, downing two, while the other two P-51s fell victim to his fellow pilots. On 1 June 1944, Hartmann shot down four P-51s in a single mission over the Ploieşti oil fields. Later that month, during his fifth combat with American pilots, he shot down two more P-51s before being forced to bail out, when eight other P-51s ran his Messerschmitt out of fuel. During the intense manoeuvring, Hartmann managed to line up one of the P-51s at close range, but heard only a "clank" when he fired, as he had run out of ammunition. While he was hanging in his parachute, the P-51s circled above him, and Hartmann wondered if they would take this opportunity to kill him. One of the P-51Bs flown by Lt. Robert J. Goebel of the 308th Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, broke away and headed straight for him. Goebel was making a camera pass to record the bailout and banked away from him only at the last moment, waving at Hartmann as he went by.

[diaster]

and then there is this...
The Bf 109 may be credited with more aerial kills than any other aircraft. One hundred and five (possibly 109) Bf 109 pilots were credited with the destruction of 100 or more enemy aircraft. Thirteen of these men scored more than 200 kills, while two scored more than 300. Altogether this group were credited with nearly 15,000 kills between them. Official ace status was granted to any pilot who scored five or more kills. Applying this to Luftwaffe fighter pilots and their records reveals that "Ace" status belonged to more than 2,500 German pilots. Against Soviets, the Finnish-flown Bf 109Gs claimed a victory ratio of 25:1 in favour of the Finns

[BnZs]

and then there is this...
The Bf 109 may be credited with more aerial kills than any other aircraft. One hundred and five (possibly 109) Bf 109 pilots were credited with the destruction of 100 or more enemy aircraft. Thirteen of these men scored more than 200 kills, while two scored more than 300. Altogether this group were credited with nearly 15,000 kills between them. Official ace status was granted to any pilot who scored five or more kills. Applying this to Luftwaffe fighter pilots and their records reveals that "Ace" status belonged to more than 2,500 German pilots. Against Soviets, the Finnish-flown Bf 109Gs claimed a victory ratio of 25:1 in favour of the Finns

The 109 is a good plane, and it was flown by lethal pilots. However, there are numerous other factors involved, especially when we consider the German and Finn scores against Soviet air forces that had been porked by Stalin just before the war.

 For instance, the reason the Germans have so many aces scoring in the hundreds is that they did not rotate them out of combat. If memory serves, Hartmann flew something like 1400 sorties to earn his 352 kills. By contrast, Robert Johnson was credited with 28 kills in 25 sorties in ETO.

[save]

109G's could outdive a P51D IRL because it compressed to becoming un-maneuverable earlier than the 109G ( it's NOT what I see in AH)
P51B/C could, however outdive the 109G, this was due to the bubble canopy of the D model that disturbed airflow over tail
There are numerous pilots accounts of that.