Author Topic: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket  (Read 2895 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2014, 05:23:42 PM »

I think everyone should consider the possibility that icepac is trolling you all with his "merge questions".

In my assessment (opinion) he claimed ignorance of what a merge is in order to get a clear definition that doesn't require him to turn at the first merge.  His claim that he flew straight and level at the alt cap to  "make sure a merge took place" has nothing to do with "what a merge is".  His real intent is to contend (or demonstrate) that you don't need to dive and turn at the initial merge to win.  I'm not saying I agree with it, although I am no dueling expert, but I am certain that is the point he is trying to make.  Why he is not just coming out and saying that, I don't know, other than he may be enjoying trolling you on the subject and likely he intends to use the same "merge tactic" in later rounds in the tournament.

If you watch the films, you will see what did was avoid an immediate angles fight (by not diving and turning) and instead forced a protracted energy fight, while making the opponent turn, chase and climb to him.  This almost works.  

In each film you can see icepac winds up with a slight altitude advantage coming into the second merge where both aircraft are at or near stall.  A little better gunnery may have even won him more rounds, though I'm not sure he had the energy to keep his nose up for a kill shot in the Hurri round.  In the I-16 round, Suns stalls and icepac wins.  In the 110 round, icepac stalls and Suns wins.  The other two rounds came down to better gunnery and lead angles by Suns.

I think icepac is probably used to stalling people out in fights, rather than angle fighting.  So, he attempted to use that approach in his duels.  In my opinion, he used his feigned ignorance about merges as subterfuge to disguise his intent or to troll all the DA experts, or both.

He knows what a merge is.  He just doesn't subscribe to what most duelers do at/after the merge, which is turn.

I hope this saves those of you being trolled from further headaches.

<S>
Ryno


Quite frankly, only in the DA environment would icepac's choice of merge tactics work (since most duels have cold merges) but in the MA environment its one of the worst merges you can employ as it leave you wide open for the opponent to use a lead turn merge. 

Also, what icepac calls a "proper merge" is anything but as there is no single "proper merge" tactic to employ.  What merge you use is very dependent on the situation and as such, you will find yourself using different types of merges.

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Offline Kingpin

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2014, 06:23:15 PM »

Quite frankly, only in the DA environment would icepac's choice of merge tactics work


If it works in the DA then is icepac's "extend and climb" merge a "proper merge" for a duel setting?

It appears that with more effective gunnery, it would work.

I'm curious to hear from the experienced duelers and trainers about this type of merge, especially those who profess the "get lower and fight from the bottom" approach.  Why is that better than conserving E and going up?

Again, I am no DA expert, so I am actually curious about comparing these merge techniques.

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Offline mechanic

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2014, 06:40:54 PM »
It is impossible for two exactly the same planes starting at exactly the same E to win an E advantage off the merge unless one of the pilots deliberately wastes E. With equal planes and equal pilots the extend and climb style merge will only ever result in the 'extendee' being chased by the other. Obviously that is a very clean cut statement that does not relate to differing skill level and/or poor choices.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2014, 06:56:50 PM »

If it works in the DA then is icepac's "extend and climb" merge a "proper merge" for a duel setting?

No.  The only reason why it's a viable tactic in the DA is that most duels have a cold merge.  In the MA, a merge like his would most likely lead to head on shots by both parties.  It's also not the best merge to employ in a duel either.  Basically, a merge like the one he did was to set the fight for an Energy fight, hoping that the other opponent will burn his energy in turning his plane 180 degrees and not being able to follow the other guy in a climb, basically being roped.  However, this is easily countered by the other guy by using a low-G vertical turn to preserve and maintain their energy state to follow the 1st pilot and close within gun range for a shot.

Quote
It appears that with more effective gunnery, it would work.

With effective gunnery, it would most likely favor the 2nd guy if he has sufficient energy to close within gun range.  I recently dueled someone in P-38Js and he used the same merge as icepac, while I used a low-G vertical turn to reverse and follow him up.  The other guy had slightly more energy than I did but I had enough to close within gun range and get the shot both times for the victory.

Quote
I'm curious to hear from the experienced duelers and trainers about this type of merge, especially those who profess the "get lower and fight from the bottom" approach.  Why is that better than conserving E and going up?

The reason I don't like to use that type of merge is because it really does limit your options as you're basically committing to one type of fighting, Energy and if the other guy has sufficient (remember that you don't have to match him E for E) energy to counter, the 1st guy quickly starts to lose options, especially if he's starting to lose E himself trying to maintain his climb while trying to rope you.

I don't remember if I filmed the fights I was referring to.  When I get home I'll check and post the films if I have them and you can see why these types of merges aren't the best.

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Offline Kingpin

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2014, 07:15:39 PM »
I don't remember if I filmed the fights I was referring to.  When I get home I'll check and post the films if I have them and you can see why these types of merges aren't the best.

ack-ack

Cool. Thanks for the detailed answer.  I'd love to see the films.

I've personally been curious about this subject, because the double-immelman (as an E fighting move) doesn't seem to work well in duels.  I've struggled to adapt to duels in AH, a result of my learning to "fly" years ago in Warbirds, where Energy is everything, because it was easier to lose and harder to regain than it is in AH and "getting to the top" with a smoother first/second merge was the way to win.  

However AH seems to favor angles over energy in most cases, especially in equal plane, equal E-state merges like duels, because energy is more easily regained and kill-shots are far easier to make in AH, which is why someone lower E still has a chance to get a kill via the better angle.

That said, I'm not sure exactly what advantage "the bottom" gives you after a merge.

Perhaps I just haven't put it all together in practice yet.

Thanks again for the feedback.

<S>
Ryno

« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 07:19:09 PM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline Dragon Tamer

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2014, 08:00:33 PM »
They let guys like you in college? Now that's funny!

They let someone like you out in public? Now that's funny!  :rofl

Offline mechanic

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2014, 08:30:55 PM »
Cool. Thanks for the detailed answer.  I'd love to see the films.

I've personally been curious about this subject, because the double-immelman (as an E fighting move) doesn't seem to work well in duels.  I've struggled to adapt to duels in AH, a result of my learning to "fly" years ago in Warbirds, where Energy is everything, because it was easier to lose and harder to regain than it is in AH and "getting to the top" with a smoother first/second merge was the way to win.  

However AH seems to favor angles over energy in most cases, especially in equal plane, equal E-state merges like duels, because energy is more easily regained and kill-shots are far easier to make in AH, which is why someone lower E still has a chance to get a kill via the better angle.

That said, I'm not sure exactly what advantage "the bottom" gives you after a merge.

Perhaps I just haven't put it all together in practice yet.

Thanks again for the feedback.

<S>
Ryno







Let me try and explain the basic principle behind what I call a negative energy advantage. I don't know if this is a correct term or if there is another term for it.

From the above graphic:

Let us presume that the opponent's speed is 250mph. All speeds will be based on a fictional aircraft not in aceshigh.

We are also assuming that both pilots desire to achieve a firing solution or die trying. There will be no desire to exit the fight for either aircraft.

Pink - Negative Energy Disadvantage
<200mph


This means that you are too slow to pose any threat to the opponent. You will be attacked until conclusion or the circumstances change. 

Dark Green - Negative Energy Advantage
200-235mph


This means you are slow enough to turn tighter than your opponent but also that you are fast enough to be in a vertical pursuit against the opponent. The difference between being too slow to pose a threat and being in vertical pursuit is that in vertical pursuit you are able to get your nose pointed at the enemy for a firing solution, or, at the very least, force your opponent to keep climbing out of reach. This negates the opponent's ability to turn back down and bring his guns onto you without first passing through your gunsite.

This position also puts you in the perfect stance to initiate a rolling scissors fight should the opponent manage to turn back down into you without either of you being shot. Rolling scissors are almost always won by the player at a negative energy advantage.

A negative energy advantage makes use of the single most important dimension in ACMs, the weapons strapped to the planes. You do not have to be the same speed as your opponent to kill them when you have a bunch of guns. You don't have to be able to run as fast as a gazelle to put a bullet through it. All you need do is get close enough to be in firing range. When two planes turn back into each other in order to fire the one at a negative energy advantage will always be first to guns on.

This is the dangerous playground of the most experienced pure duelling fighters in this game. The sticks who always beat you even though you started faster or higher. They could at anytime make the decision to play more tactically to ensure the same victory but the gamble of seeking the negative energy advantage is faster, more effective and far more satisfying and as such, more risky. When a negative energy advantage is gained and then utilized correctly you simply cannot lose.

Purple - Co-E
235-265mph

A few mph either side make no odds. This is as equal as it gets. Hoping to achieve a Co-E position for the win is about as useful as jousting on the merge. 50-50 chances. Does not mean you won't win but it does mean you could lose.

Red - Positive Energy Disadvantage
265-300mpg


The opponent now has the negative energy advantage. Everything above now applies against you.

Light Green - Positive Energy Advantage
300mph+


Reverse of the first back on you. What is true of the NEA is also true of the PEA. When a positive energy advantage is gained and then utilized correctly you simply cannot lose. However it is a lot easier to throw away a positive energy advantage because you are always predictable. You have to attack.


Either areas on the graph in shades of green are what any dueller is trying to achieve off the merge if they have any good sense about them. The important factor in your decision as to which is the merge E. If the merge is set for co-E then you are far better off aiming for a negative energy adv than a positive energy adv because the later replies on the opponent wasting E.
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2014, 10:30:52 PM »

A negative energy advantage makes use of the single most important dimension in ACMs, the weapons strapped to the planes. You do not have to be the same speed as your opponent to kill them when you have a bunch of guns. You don't have to be able to run as fast as a gazelle to put a bullet through it. All you need do is get close enough to be in firing range. When two planes turn back into each other in order to fire the one at a negative energy advantage will always be first to guns on.



Interesting stuff.  I like how the chart illustrates how narrow a window that "negative E advantage" is.  But, I'm not sure I fully grasp how it is being achieved.  

What is curious to me, is that you answered this in terms of speed.  What I most often hear duelers saying is they want is to be lower ("fighting from the bottom") after the initial merge, but not that they are also slower.  Assuming one plane turns more in the vertical while the other turns flatter, isn't the one who turned vertically (and is higher) also the one that is going slower coming into the second merge.  Wouldn't the higher/slower plane thus have the "negative E (slower speed) advantage" you describe?  This is kind of where the wheels come off for me.

At what point exactly are you intending to be slower?  Diving into the merge doesn't imply getting slower, nor does turning flatter (below) your opponent.

Perhaps you can elaborate more on how this "negative E advantage" is obtained.

Much of this seems counter-intuitive to me and is the exact opposite of what I learned in Warbirds, hence my difficulty in conceptualizing it.

<S>
Ryno
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline mechanic

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2014, 11:39:31 PM »
You are right, my diagram is labelled incorrectly. The vertical axis should read 'Energy' and the opponents energy should be listed not speed.

When I say 'just slow enough' that should say 'just little enough energy' as should all things that are described as speed. It's so easy to label energy as speed, I will have to make sure I don't get sloppy like this in future :)

It is easier to explain explain energy in term of speed. It would be more challenging to explain the same theory in terms of speed+altitude. But you can assume that altitude is also factored in to the speed listings.

eg:

250mph + 3000ft = PEA over 250mph guy 3k below.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 11:43:12 PM by mechanic »
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2014, 01:07:27 AM »
You are right, my diagram is labelled incorrectly. The vertical axis should read 'Energy' and the opponents energy should be listed not speed.

When I say 'just slow enough' that should say 'just little enough energy' as should all things that are described as speed. It's so easy to label energy as speed, I will have to make sure I don't get sloppy like this in future :)

It is easier to explain explain energy in term of speed. It would be more challenging to explain the same theory in terms of speed+altitude. But you can assume that altitude is also factored in to the speed listings.

eg:

250mph + 3000ft = PEA over 250mph guy 3k below.



If I understand you correctly then, the objective is to wind up with just slightly less energy than your opponent after the merge, because co-E, same plane there is no likelihood of a large +E advantage to be gained by either pilot.  Therefore you want to be a little slower and lower, because you can more easily turn inside at the second merge and either go to guns or win a scissors fight.

Is that the long and short of it?

I can see why dueling is so counter-intuitive to me, as this approach runs opposite of everything I have ever been taught.

<S>
Ryno
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline mechanic

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2014, 01:13:30 AM »
Yes exactly that. Having slightly less speed and/or altitude is the most likely way to win a co-e fight with a head on merge although with that reward comes the risk of cocking it up.
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2014, 01:32:14 AM »
although with that reward comes the risk of cocking it up.

By that I assume you mean missing your shot(s) opportunities.

In watching films of finalists, I have noticed that most of the winners in the dueling brackets are the ones who always land hits when they fire.  This was one of the factors that made me decide to truly focus on gunnery and start a course for my squad.

Now that I understand why fighting from the bottom makes sense in a same-plane, co-E situation, I may consider trying to expand my skill-set into that arena some.

Thanks again for the feedback.

<S>

« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 01:34:22 AM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline BluBerry

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2014, 01:42:34 AM »


In watching films of finalists, I have noticed that most of the winners in the dueling brackets are the ones who always land hits when they fire.



I always tell people, "you may out fly me, but I will out shoot you"

My shooting ability in game has long been my strongest fighting attribute in my opinion.

Still trying to improve my dog fighting.

Offline Kingpin

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2014, 01:57:32 AM »
I always tell people, "you may out fly me, but I will out shoot you"

My shooting ability in game has long been my strongest fighting attribute in my opinion.

Still trying to improve my dog fighting.


I'm still working to improve both.  

But once I started getting "cheater/hack/aimbot" accusations in the MA, I knew my gunnery was getting good.  :)

<S>
Ryno
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline ink

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Re: sunsfan vs icepac dueling bracket
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2014, 03:18:47 PM »
I always tell people, "you may out fly me, but I will out shoot you"

My shooting ability in game has long been my strongest fighting attribute in my opinion.

Still trying to improve my dog fighting.

yup you do have excellent aim.... :aok


mine is the exact opposite :lol