TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.

[Widewing]

No.  Survivability and range are massively on the Mossie's side.

True. 162 Mossie 16s were lost in tour 169. Of these, only 49 were lost to aircraft fast enough to chase them down at 25,000 feet. Based upon what shot down the rest, and what the Mossies killed, I'd wager that most were lost at low to medium altitude, where the Mossie 16's speed is not as much of a factor.

Up at or above 25k, and the Mossie 16 is very hard to intercept. If you're not in an Me 163, or already at altitude, the Mossie 16 is almost untouchable. Fly it how it was supposed to be flown and you'll have great success. Take them in low, and you'll be unhappy.

[icepac]

Since a properly flown tu2 sortie usually has enemy climbing up to get you, drop your bombs and rope the enemy fighter.

He won't expect you to suddenly whip around and attack him and you can often catch them at very slow speeds

A tu2 coming down with energy advantage will result in you shooting the fighter down or him diving away so you land, rearm, and give it another go.

[Charge]

"According to German tests it took an average of five 30mm rounds (concentrated in one area of a wing) to bring down a four-engined bomber. It took twenty 20mm rounds to do the same. "

I have never seen such definition which you put in parenthesis and the amount was actually four for 30mm. I have only seen it claimed that on average it took 4 rounds of 30mm and about 25 rounds of 20mm to bring down a "Flying Fortress" without further definition of the exact type meant or where they had to be hit. This leads me to think that one of those four hits would likely (or statistically) produce fatal damage that would bring the bomber down, either by a fuel fire or fatal structural damage.

Considering that on same statistics it was included that on average only 4% of rounds fired generally hit the target, I find it hard to believe they could concentrate their fire on a particular area of the plane.

-C+

[GScholz]

I may be mistaken, but I remember it being 5 rounds and concentrated. The 4% statistic is irrelevant since it represents all air combat, not just attacking large aircraft flying straight and level. In Vietnam the US expended 50,000 rounds of ammunition for every NVA/VC killed. That doesn't mean a rifleman had to shoot 50,000 rounds to hit someone. If you have ever watched Luftwaffe gun cam footage you can clearly see they aim for specific parts of the bomber when they get close enough. When they saddled up on a bomber they went for the gunners first, then the wings. In head-on attacks they tried to get the cockpit.

[SmokinLoon]

I'd be hard pressed to see a way in which the Ju88A-4 bests the Tu-2S.  It is also short ranged, but slower, less defenses, lighter bomb load for strategic targets and so on.  The only thing I can think of where the Ju88A-4 is superior is in its ability to absorb punishment.

I agree with most of your assessment of the Ju88 vs Tu-2, but in terms able to damage the strats the Ju88 is superior.

The Ju88 can spread damage out with the 4/500kg and the 20/50kg bombs.  The no matter which bomb load taken on the Tu-2 the total area destroyed will be less. 

 

[Karnak]

The only thing 50kg bombs can destroy at strats are gun emplacements.  The Tu-2S' two 1000kg bomb and two 500kg/four 250kg loadout is functionally as good at strat smashing as anything the Ju88A-4 can take.

[Rich46yo]

Luv the TU-2S. Good bomb load, good speed, but defence is a little weak on the sides.

Getting a little better defensive performance going to side aircraft, I have a mini control pad that allows me to switch aircraft, and rolling to get the attackers into my sight. Im at the point now where Im damaging every single that attacks me, most of all 262s. But I just cant seem to put most of them down. Im not even starting to think about shooting until they are 600 away and often wait until 400. With my gunnery improving I think I'll be able to defend against a single or a double, but yeah, its no B26. Funny tho it has a far better K/D then the 26, "GV killing no doubt".

Since I level bomb in Historical correct ways I depend on speed and avoid the conga line into the targets, 2 pass and haul az$.

[Lusche]

Funny tho it has a far better K/D then the 26, "GV killing no doubt".

A2A K/D Tour 169: 

Tu-2 0.26
B-26 0.41
A-20 0.56

[Zoney]

A2A K/D Tour 169: 

Tu-2 0.26
B-26 0.41
A-20 0.56

WAPOW

Just guessing Rich ?   That don't work too well here homey.

[Lusche]

 

[Rich46yo]

WAPOW

Just guessing Rich ?   That don't work too well here homey.

Funny slick, Im showing a 0.36 for the TU2.A 0.30 for the B26. And a 1.18 for the A20. Thats for tour 169.

What part of this 

but yeah, its no B26. Funny tho it has a far better K/D then the 26, "GV killing no doubt".

did you fail to understand?

[icepac]

As bomber or "attack"?

[GScholz]

Knoke was a very interesting guy. His biography is an excellent read. On August 25th, 1944, Knoke's leading his unit, joined a number of other Luftwaffe fighters scrambled in response to huge numbers of Allied fighters inbound. Knoke had recently returned to flight status after suffering a head injury when shot down in April. They ended up in a big fight with the 354th FG. Knoke shot down a P-51, while being shot down by another P-51 himself.

No one knows which Mustang Knoke clobbered. However, one P-51 returned to field A-31 badly shot-up (I forget the pilot's name). In the middle 1990s, during a review of the group's records, it was discovered that some German pilot may have deserved one more kill. How so, when it returned to base? A Bf 109 had shot out the Mustang's hydraulic system. When the pilot limped back to A-31, he attempted to lower his gear without hydraulic pressure. When the landing gear emergency release handle is pulled, the gear unlocks and will drop down partially under its own weight. The pilot shook the Mustang vigorously with the ailerons. The right gear locked. The left did not. After several failed attempts to lock it down, the pilot was ordered to bail out, rather than risk landing with one down, which he did. The P-51 was destroyed. Ironically, it was later discovered that the low time P-51 pilot had not actually followed emergency procedures. When shaking the gear down, one should do so while holding the emergency handle full back. This pilot failed to do so, and the one gear didn't lock. A pilot could also "crab" the aircraft to get some aerodynamic force to assist getting the recalcitrant gear to lock. The P-51, however, lacks the aileron force to maintain a "crabbed" attitude very long. Anyway, for this reason, a historian argued at the time that the P-51 was lost due to pilot error rather than being shot down. Naturally, there is much disagreement on this. I think some undetermined German pilot deserved the victory credit. I wonder how many of these types of losses never get reported as being due to enemy action?

It is also interesting to note that by late 1944, emergency policy evolved somewhat. When showing no hydraulic pressure due to damage resulting from enemy fire, a P-51 pilot was sometimes advised NOT to attempt to lower the gear, but perform a belly landing. The reason for this was that the hydraulic failure resulting from damage may be accompanied by other damage to structure and/or systems. Attempting to lower the gear may create a greater problem. Once a P-51 is on the ground and the engine shut off, the flaps and landing gear doors will gradually lower. Landing gear is retained up by mechanical locks, which can be manually unlocked with the emergency handle.

That said, August 25th was not a good day for the Luftwaffe in France. The 355th FG squadron of the 354th FG, was credited with 25 kills (Knoke being one of them), against three losses (including the one lost over field A-31). One 367th FG (flying P-38Ls and late J models) pilot, Capt. L. E. Blumer, shot down 5 Fw 190s in 7 minutes over St.-Quentin in his P-38L. All confirmed via gun camera and witnesses. The 367th claimed another 4 air to air, and 27 on the ground (some were bomber and transport types). That day, in France, a total of 77 Luftwaffe fighters were claimed as destroyed in air to air combat, and 27 on the ground that day by TAC pilots. 11 USAAF fighter losses were credited to all causes. Another 20 German fighters were claimed as destroyed on the ground by 20th FG Mustangs flying airdrome fighter sweeps. August 25th effectively ended the Luftwaffe's fighter presence in France.

Claims for August 25th by 8th AF and 9th AF fighters over France amounted to 77 claimed shot down, 7 damaged, plus 47 (all types) claimed destroyed on the ground. The primary goal of August 25th air ops was to destroy what remained of the Luftwaffe in France. It largely succeeded.

I missed this post... Yes. As soon as the Luftwaffe was forced into a war of attrition, fighter-to-fighter, the game was up. Against unescorted bombers the Luftwaffe could inflict unsustainable losses on the Allied air forces, but when sufficient long range escorts became available the tables were turned. Knoke was an interesting guy for sure, but he was also a devote national socialist, even after the war. He became a politician for the Sozialistische Reichspartei, an openly neo-Nazi party that was banned in the early '50s. He mellowed in the '60s and continued his political career in the center-right of German politics.

[Rich46yo]

As bomber or "attack"?

Its a Bomber. To me its a "Bomber". Check out the title of the thread for reference.

[PJ_Godzilla]

I missed this post... Yes. As soon as the Luftwaffe was forced into a war of attrition, fighter-to-fighter, the game was up. Against unescorted bombers the Luftwaffe could inflict unsustainable losses on the Allied air forces, but when sufficient long range escorts became available the tables were turned. Knoke was an interesting guy for sure, but he was also a devote national socialist, even after the war. He became a politician for the Sozialistische Reichspartei, an openly neo-Nazi party that was banned in the early '50s. He mellowed in the '60s and continued his political career in the center-right of German politics.

This is counterintuitive to me - the unclaimed p-51 -in that, I thought that, generally, claims exceeded kills. Apparently not always...

As for his postwar life, I believe the following phrase applies: "who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". I suspect such was even more widespread on the eastern side, although latent.