Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"

[katanaso]

No, it doesn't; that is, not if done correctly (which is up to the attacking pilot - the defending pilot has no say or influence over this).

The guy who went into a break turn has just bled his energy state down. A proper follow-through is a high yoyo if the speed differential is great (roughly ~80kts or so). If it's less, then the attacker should perform a rollaway. Either way, the attacker will end up behind the defender at a high 5-7 position when done correctly. The defender has to either dive or perform another break turn, burning even more of their energy state. You can wash, rinse, and repeat this all the way to the deck, until the defender has nowhere to go and is entirely out of energy.

Break turns are great for using an opponent's energy advantage against themselves when you cannot equalize your combat state to match your opponent, but they're very easy to counter and should not be used as a primary maneuver to gain an advantage.

What I put in bold and red is how the fight resets.  The attacker has to become aggressive again, and the defender has to defend again.  You're confirming what I'm saying.

The defender needs to create separation, force the guy to miss again, and start neutralizing his E advantage.

It also doesn't need to be a completely flat break turn; that's situational.  Depending on the plane types, their E retention, and their performance, it can put you at a much worse disadvantage. A 109K4 or Spit 8 can easily break flat, reverse, and have the power to climb and get a shot against most planes.  Put a 51 in the defensive role, and it's not going to be able to perform the same.

Personally, I don't use a flat break turn, and instead try to get the nose down to trade E states and keep options open.

[Kingpin]

What I put in bold and red is how the fight resets.  The attacker has to become aggressive again, and the defender has to defend again.  You're confirming what I'm saying.

The defender needs to create separation, force the guy to miss again, and start neutralizing his E advantage.

It also doesn't need to be a completely flat break turn; that's situational.  Depending on the plane types, their E retention, and their performance, it can put you at a much worse disadvantage. A 109K4 or Spit 8 can easily break flat, reverse, and have the power to climb and get a shot against most planes.  Put a 51 in the defensive role, and it's not going to be able to perform the same.

Personally, I don't use a flat break turn, and instead try to get the nose down to trade E states and keep options open.

Yeah, I think you are both essentially saying the same thing.  The position (attacker at high six) resets, but the fight is still on and a good attacker can (and should) keep the pressure on.

The key as the attacker is to maintain offensive position (hence the yo-yo or lag roll) and keep the defender turning until you have a shot angle or enough E loss by the defender to simply saddle up for a shot.  Normally, against a good defender this means first bleeding him down in terms of altitude, and and then speed, so he can no longer break nose down.  I think a common mistake during this is to extend too far up and away before pressing the attack, as this just lets the defender regain more E after his break turn.

The key as the defender is to get the attacker to miss and overshoot while you have enough energy to reverse and capitalize on a mistake -- either the attacker passing too far below you OR losing speed by pulling G's turning with you in your break.  I think this is why Mir's point about "breaking slightly nose down" is good, because by doing this you break while gaining a little speed to "S-break" (reverse) back in behind the attacker if he makes a mistake.

On a personal note, my introduction to Mir in the MA was in just such a fight (him in a Jug-M and me a Pony-D).  I came in about 4K above him and the fight was around 12K.  I knew I was against a good stick because of how effective his break turns were and how he managed to stay fast at the expense of a little altitude each pass.  So, I kept making yo-yo's about 7 or 8 times before we were on the deck and he had no altitude to break down with and no speed left to maneuver.    It was one of those fights where we both made each other work very hard.  I think it was a good example of "both pilots flying it right" (for the most part, even though some of my yo-yos were too high and a bit sloppy) and the defender eventually just running out of options.  I remember I was excited by this because I was relatively new to AH at the time and was still working on my reading of energy states, which is crucial in this type of fight.

I also recall it well because, to his credit, Mir PM'd me after to say "Well flown and good fight."  I also wasn't recording at the time, so he messaged me the film of the fight here in the forum.  

again for that one, Mir.

Hope these comments are helpful.

<S>
Ryno

[Skyyr]

What I put in bold and red is how the fight resets.  The attacker has to become aggressive again, and the defender has to defend again.  You're confirming what I'm saying.

Unless the attacker breaks off, the defender has never stopped being defensive. It's not a reset unless the defender is able to reenter the fight to from a neutral or offensive position. Otherwise, it never changed.

A break turn will not reset the fight - a break turn creates an overshoot situation. Depending on how the attacker responds (in layman's terms, if he screws up), you have the potential to be able to reset the fight.

To reset the fight, you have to change the angle and energy situation of the attacker relative to the defender - your series of break turns doesn't accomplish that. In fact, it simply burns your E reservoir while allowing the attacker to maintain a perched, rear 3-9 position on you. In essence, nothing is changing whatsoever, except for the defender's relative energy state.

I'll be more than happy to go to the DA with you and start with a setup that mirrors this post (same plane, me as the attacker, you as the defender) and demonstrate first hand how to run someone all the way down to the deck, forcing them to use break turns to burn their energy. I can post the film here afterwards as well.

Also, describing different plane characteristics is counter-productive to BFM (which is what this is), as BFM is focused on the physics on the maneuver, not on how well the other plane turns or climbs compared to the other (that's ACM). BFM in all military flight schools is taught from a neutral aircraft performance perspective.

[Kingpin]

Hey Sky,

Again, I think you are both essentially saying the same thing, but arguing semantics about what it means to "reset" a fight. 

What I think Mir meant in his answer that you've "reset the fight" is simply that you've reset the relative starting position: the attacker is still high six and +E.  However, this comes at the cost of some E and he admitted that you can't do this indefinitely, as eventually you run out of altitude.  I doubt there is any need for you to "prove" that to anyone.  (Read my post above where I describe exactly the process you are talking about bleeding the defender's E down as the attacker.  I think you may have been typing your reply to Mir while I was typing mine.)

I think all would agree with you that "reset the fight" in a more general term would mean changing the overall dynamics of the fight, including relative E-states.  Personally, I tend to think of a fight as "reset" when the attacker and defender have extended from each other far enough to then re-merge in a "new" dynamic.  In that sense, I suppose a break turn could reset a fight if the attacker decided to extend and not press the attack.  That said, I don't think a discussion on the definition of "reset the fight" is really germane to the topic of break turns and creating overshoot angles.

<S>
Ryno

[katanaso]

That's very incorrect. Unless the attacker breaks off, the defender has never stopped being defensive. It's not a reset unless the defender is able to reenter the fight to from a neutral or offensive position. Otherwise, it never changed. Let's talk basic physics as they pertain to ACM.

At distance, you spot the attacker (let's say it's me). You go into a 2.5G break turn... and I go into a 2.5G turn to match you. Guess what? I'll be able to turn with you, and shoot you, unless you pull harder. You pull 3G's... and I'll pull 3G's. You get the idea.

To correctly break turn, you have to generate AoT in relation to our flight paths. This is most easily done through tight horizontal turns. You can do this through using available G loading, or you can do it by reducing your airspeed to have a tighter turn radius, which functionally has the same effect (you're not pulling as hard, but you'll have bled the same, if not more, energy).

You yank back to that load and you'll outturn me, but you'll drain your energy like nothing else. The thing is, I don't care about the overshoot, I care about using the excess energy I have to force you to bleed yours. I'm going to make sure that you pull more G's than I do... or I'll have a shot.

At the point you've committed to a break turn, I'm going to go vertical and roll with you, and come back down the second you maneuver to disengage from the turn, having maintained my speed advantage. It's simple physics. If you try to roll vertical with me, I'm going to take you up and stall you out. I'm going to mirror everything you do, making every maneuver you perform simply burn more of your energy.

A break turn will not reset the fight - a break turn creates an overshoot situation. Depending on how the attacker responds (in layman's terms, if he screws up), you have the potential to be able to reset the fight.

To reset the fight, you have to change the angle and energy situation of the attacker relative to the defender - your series of break turns doesn't accomplish that. In fact, it simply burns your E reservoir while allowing the attacker to maintain a perched, rear 3-9 position on you. In essence, nothing is changing whatsoever, except for the defender's relative energy state.

I'll be more than happy to go to the DA with you and start with a setup that mirrors this post (same plane, me as the attacker, you as the defender) and demonstrate first hand how to run someone all the way down to the deck, forcing them to use break turns to burn their energy. I can post the film here afterwards as well.

Also, describing different plane characteristics is counter-productive to BFM (which is what this is), as BFM is focused on the physics on the maneuver, not on how well the other plane turns or climbs compared to the other (that's ACM). BFM in all military flight schools is taught from a neutral aircraft performance perspective.

What you just described is not what this thread is about.  Of course a low G break turn will be easily matched by an attacker, even more so if it's started at a great distance.  You're also negating the use of a breaking into a nose low turn.  You're completely talking about the horizontal here.  Yes, that will give up energy for nothing in return.  And yes, that will just be a series of flat breaks until the fight ends up on the deck.

You're also using semantics about the word "reset" here.  It 100% resets to the initial roles in the fight of attacker and defender.  Nowhere did I say it resets to a neutral position.  

I've done this hundreds, if not thousands of times since playing AW then AH, so I know how it works.  I've also already fought you in the MA, and used this type of tactic against you (and the other newer Damned folks), and it's consistently ended up with E states being neutralized, then you guys flying away in Doras, so no thank you for a DA session.

ETA: This wasn't intended to attack the newer Damned folks.  I used them as you all fly together and have very similar styles.  I realized that the meaning might come across incorrectly.  <S>

[Sunka]

All this semantics and Latrobe would still kill us all.
 


 


 

[katanaso]

Hey Sky,

Again, I think you are both essentially saying the same thing, but arguing semantics about what it means to "reset" a fight. 

What I think Mir meant in his answer that you've "reset the fight" is simply that you've reset the relative starting position: the attacker is still high six and +E.  However, this comes at the cost of some E and he admitted that you can't do this indefinitely, as eventually you run out of altitude.  I doubt there is any need for you to "prove" that to anyone.  (Read my post above where I describe exactly the process you are talking about bleeding the defender's E down as the attacker.  I think you may have been typing your reply to Mir while I was typing mine.)

I think all would agree with you that "reset the fight" in a more general term would mean changing the overall dynamics of the fight, including relative E-states.  Personally, I tend to think of a fight as "reset" when the attacker and defender have extended from each other far enough to then re-merge in a "new" dynamic.  In that sense, I suppose a break turn could reset a fight if the attacker decided to extend and not press the attack.  That said, I don't think a discussion on the definition of "reset the fight" is really germane to the topic of break turns and creating overshoot angles.

<S>
Ryno

You posted this as I was typing.  One of the main points I was trying to make.  <S>

[Kingpin]

You posted this as I was typing.  One of the main points I was trying to make.  <S>

Good.  I'm glad somebody reads my attempts at diplomacy.   

Read my early post about our fight as well.  I still have that film you sent me that illustrates exactly this topic, but am embarrassed to post it given how bad my yo-yo's were back then. 

<S>
Ryno

[katanaso]

Good.  I'm glad somebody reads my attempts at diplomacy.   

Read my early post about our fight as well.  I still have that film you sent me that illustrates exactly this topic, but am embarrassed to post it given how bad my yo-yo's were back then. 

<S>
Ryno

I just did.  It brings back a memory, so I'll need to search through my films too.    I have a more recent one of you in a 51 with Brooke in 38 against me in 38.  No idea how it turned out.  Lol  <S>

[lerxst]

Thank you for the write up, i almost never remember about the wing tip on enemy rule! its always great info you fellas give to keep people striving to be our best! thank you

[Skyyr]

What you just described is not what this thread is about.  Of course a low G break turn will be easily matched by an attacker, even more so if it's started at a great distance.  You're also negating the use of a breaking into a nose low turn.  You're completely talking about the horizontal here.  Yes, that will give up energy for nothing in return.  And yes, that will just be a series of flat breaks until the fight ends up on the deck.

You're also using semantics about the word "reset" here.  It 100% resets to the initial roles in the fight of attacker and defender.  Nowhere did I say it resets to a neutral position.  

I've done this hundreds, if not thousands of times since playing AW then AH, so I know how it works.  I've also already fought you in the MA, and used this type of tactic against you (and the other newer Damned folks), and it's consistently ended up with E states being neutralized, then you guys flying away in Doras, so no thank you for a DA session.

ETA: This wasn't intended to attack the newer Damned folks.  I used them as you all fly together and have very similar styles.  I realized that the meaning might come across incorrectly.  <S>

I'll agree that we're disagreeing on the use of the term "reset." No offense meant.

And yes, the defense you described works well against planes that cannot turn well, such as Doras. Doras do two things really well: go fast and shoot things However, the maneuver is not so easily countered when fighting the same plane or plane with similar maneuverability, which was my point.

-=S=-

[bustr]

Judging E is definitely one of the more difficult things to master, especially if your opponent is working his throttle. A number of times I'd see someone diving in on me from high and I'd do my usual break turn to use his speed against him. Then I'm thinking "Ok, why hasn't he overshot yet? He should have way more speed than that!" It's at the moment that I suddenly realize he's probably chopped his throttle and now I must tighten my turn or do something else immediately before he shoots me.

If your opponent has reduced throttle in this example as he dives to you. Your turn gives him a 3.0 radii lead window for a snap shot you are flying yourself through. In the case of a P51 boring in at 450. His energy state will make that shot problematical but, if he slows down like a spit8 vet will often do, you will have a nice dance film. Many 109F pilots like Latrobe in the game will have a poni scoobi snack in a few moves if the poni slows down for the attack. The spit8 will hit wep and yoyo or reset if he has experience upon missing the 3.0 radii window.

Most players will never bother to learn gunnery, so these write ups by Lathrobe are survival gems for our environment. In ww2 you were supposed to shoot your enemy, not have a dance contest with him. ACM like we worship in this game was the last resort because you screwed up killing your enemy during your attack and didn't get separation.

[BnZs]

Most players will never bother to learn gunnery, so these write ups by Lathrobe are survival gems for our environment. In ww2 you were supposed to shoot your enemy, not have a dance contest with him. ACM like we worship in this game was the last resort because you screwed up killing your enemy during your attack and didn't get separation.

BS, many pilots in this game have hundreds or thousands more hours of gunnery practice than any real pilot ever did. That is actually one of the factors that makes this different than WWII. Most kills back then were "Surprise, you're dead!", but the choice in a game played on a computer screen is to either eradicate surprise through icons or simulate having legally blind pilots.

[Vudu15]

Having the chance for gunnery practice and using that time to practice are the things to remember. If someone wanted to they could but most will not.

Latrobe great write up. 

[BnZs]

Having the chance for gunnery practice and using that time to practice are the things to remember. If someone wanted to they could but most will not.

Alot of guys fire at airplanes under "combat" condition in this game more in one day than most real pilots did in their career, and it shows. Hits scored at 800-1000 yards, hits requiring wild amounts of deflection, many people are able to effectively use the Mk. 108 on maneuvering fighters, etc.

Of course, a factor that counterbalances this IMO is the fact that setting your stick and rudder interface up to have some stable pointability in your aircraft can be hard, an art unto itself apparently.