Author Topic: Lancasters perk them?  (Read 3256 times)

Offline Wiley

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2014, 10:37:32 AM »
Buffs are pretty easy kills. It feels like I shoot them down at a rate of 20:1. Even the venerable 999 falls to my guns more often than not. I see no need to perk Lancs in general. I do, however, see the validity in charging a perk for drones for the reasons mentioned previously. They should have SOME value to the pilot. Perhaps, if drones are perked, there would be a provision for more drones beyond the standard two but on a sliding scale.

Example: 1st drone = one perk, 2nd drone = two perks, 3rd drone = three and so on.

I don't think it would be a travesty to give the bomber guys up to four drones provided there is a cost.

A competent gunner with 5 bombers worth of guns at his disposal would be pretty terrifying, even if they were Lancs.  I would not want 999 to have this, ever. ;)

Drones costing perks, the problem I see is fine-tuning the cost of them.  Too low, who cares?  Too high, people stop using them and buff drivers get discouraged, which from what I've seen on the forums and ingame is an omnipresent concern.

I am suggesting that bombers have been given any number of unrealistic advantages such, F3, multiple planes for a single player, slaving of all defensive guns together. I am suggesting that when it can be demonstrated that such advantages allow the formation to have k/ds in the neighborhood of 1:1 while carrying tens of thousands of bombs then it has gone too far, and something has gotta give. If there were any fighter-bombers that could carry a bomb load into the tens of thousands of pounds while simultaneously maintaining a k/d around 1, the cries to perk that plane would be deafening. This is exactly what heavy buff formations are capable of, as the statistics for every single tour demonstrate. But for some reason there is a great deal of cognitive dissonance from players regarding bombers and their effectiveness in this game.

Because in spite of all of those advantages, that K/D, and everything you mentioned there, bombers are not an unstoppable force that unreasonably affects gameplay.

As far as that K/D, fighters are used vastly differently than bombers.  Fighters are upped into the vulch, fighters are thrown into the horde by people who don't care about dying.  The vast majority of the time, bombers fly around on their own, at alt, pretty much relying on people to be too low to come after them.  When they are attacked, it's generally in a situation where they're at their best possible capability defensively.  That skews their numbers.

I'm just not seeing anywhere other than on paper, looking at their capabilities mathematically, that bombers are being used so much and so effectively that they're bad for gameplay.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline Hoplite

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2014, 12:37:53 PM »
A competent gunner with 5 bombers worth of guns at his disposal would be pretty terrifying, even if they were Lancs.  I would not want 999 to have this, ever. ;)

 :O

If this request is implemented, then HTC also need to put in place the following map overlay enhancement:




Projected 999000 Track
WARNING: Opposing pilots are advised to steer clear from the path of the storm. Do not attempt to approach. That is all.

Offline bozon

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #107 on: April 02, 2014, 01:26:34 PM »
I'm just not seeing anywhere other than on paper, looking at their capabilities mathematically, that bombers are being used so much and so effectively that they're bad for gameplay.
So, you have never seen bombers streaming formation after formation to bomb the CV well within its acks range and under fighter CAP, in the hope that the time it takes to kill all 3 will be long enough so one survives to drop on the carrier (and die immediately after)? You have never seen a formation of lancs carpet bombing a bunch of tanks/flaks from 1000 feet altitude? You have never seen a formation bomb and bail? Never seen a bomber ditching its drones after bomb release? Never seen a formation lifting off a base under attack, flying at 300 feet and shooting at the fighters? Really?

All of the above can be done and has been done with single bombers as well. However, the formation makes the above behavior so much more effective.

It is bad for gameplay. It is another one of those things that require hordes in order to take a base, defend a carrier, or just ruin the fun by denying combat.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #108 on: April 02, 2014, 02:07:15 PM »
So, you have never seen bombers streaming formation after formation to bomb the CV well within its acks range and under fighter CAP,
 in the hope that the time it takes to kill all 3 will be long enough so one survives to drop on the carrier (and die immediately after)?

Yup.  When there is CAP in place, they rarely make it.

Quote
You have never seen a formation of lancs carpet bombing a bunch of tanks/flaks from 1000 feet altitude?

Yup.  When there is CAP in place, they rarely make it.

Quote
You have never seen a formation bomb and bail?

Yup.  What's that got to do with them being overpowered?

Quote
Never seen a bomber ditching its drones after bomb release?

Not often.  What's that got to do with them being overpowered?

Quote
Never seen a formation lifting off a base under attack, flying at 300 feet and shooting at the fighters? Really?

Not often, and when I did, it was 3 kills for the vulchers.


Quote
All of the above can be done and has been done with single bombers as well. However, the formation makes the above behavior so much more effective.

It is bad for gameplay. It is another one of those things that require hordes in order to take a base, defend a carrier, or just ruin the fun by denying combat.

Have you ever seen a lone bomber survive an attack by a decent plane that was anything other than 'numpty climbing up his dead six'?  Without formations, buffs are dead.

I could stand to see lancstukaing go.  I'd really like to see the dive angles affect bomb release.

The rest of it is dweebery, but can't be enforced out without (IMO) unfairly penalizing normal players.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #109 on: April 02, 2014, 08:21:41 PM »

Excuse my language but if you don't get a raging hard-on everytime you see lancs (free kills) then you need to go to the TA.

That is the issue.  Many of us see Lancasters (all bombers) as fresh meat to shoot down.  Though, it is obvious that many of "us" don't look at Lancs in the matter of what they can do with their 14,000 lbs of ordnance.  Likewise, many of us don't look at how easy it is to earn bomber perk points and how little bomber perk points actually get spent. Giving the heavy bombers a small perk price would give them value to those who are flying them.  Would it change how I view Lancs either as a bomber pilot or fighter pilot?  Nope.  Perhaps that is because I'm not a bomb-n-bail or a NOE vs towns kind of player.

But alas.... the knee jerkers will digress.  Another day in same-same land.

Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #110 on: April 02, 2014, 10:50:27 PM »
Blah, blah, blah, another "my way of playing is better/righter then your way of playing" thread.

Oh the angst caused when a GV'er gets a bomb dropped on them.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Hoplite

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #111 on: April 02, 2014, 11:02:23 PM »
Though, it is obvious that many of "us" don't look at Lancs in the matter of what they can do with their 14,000 lbs of ordnance. 

I beg to differ.  I'm well aware of what a Lanc can do with it's ord....that's why I'm usually so keen to kill them. 



Well...that and the fact they are really easy to kill.  :D 



I'm old. I don't quite get the same reaction Grizz does. But I admit I do giggle a bit when I see a set of Lancs. It's an evil giggle too.  :rofl

Offline bozon

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #112 on: April 03, 2014, 07:22:07 AM »
Wiley, from your reply it is clear that you have not read, or have not comprehended the argument for placing a very perk tag on drones. NO ONE SAYS THAT FORMATIONS SHOULD BEGONE.  quite the opposite.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline save

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #113 on: April 03, 2014, 08:33:44 AM »
maybe even let a 5-plane (2,5 perks) squadron taking off, 4 drones ...
imagine  what 10 sets of these 5-plane units could do :)

My ammo last for 6 Lancasters, or one Yak3.
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-Caldera

Offline Wiley

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #114 on: April 03, 2014, 09:41:37 AM »
Wiley, from your reply it is clear that you have not read, or have not comprehended the argument for placing a very perk tag on drones. NO ONE SAYS THAT FORMATIONS SHOULD BEGONE.  quite the opposite.

And I'm saying that very perk tag will either be meaningless or prohibitive.  It will either not change the behavior, or if it's enough to change the behavior, will be discouraging or encourage different, semi-dweeby behavior for pilots that don't do the things you're talking about.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2014, 10:21:37 AM »
Blah, blah, blah, another "my way of playing is better/righter then your way of playing" thread.

Oh the angst caused when a GV'er gets a bomb dropped on them.

If you're trying to mock me may I suggest you read up on my explanations.  It has nothing to do with me getting carpet bombed while in a gv by heavy bombers floating over at 1000 ft.

Likewise, I don't care how anyone plays the game, I'm just vouching for a means vs cost vs risk.  That is all. 
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #116 on: April 03, 2014, 03:25:51 PM »
If you're trying to mock me may I suggest you read up on my explanations.  It has nothing to do with me getting carpet bombed while in a gv by heavy bombers floating over at 1000 ft.

Likewise, I don't care how anyone plays the game, I'm just vouching for a means vs cost vs risk.  That is all. 

I wasnt mocking any one person in general. But we do have a trend going here against bombers.

And if you have ever read any of my posts about this Lankstuka thing There is nobody more against their use this way then am I. I think no 4 engined bomber should be able to dive bomb. Level only!

But perking such a slow helpless bomber? No way.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline NatCigg

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #117 on: April 03, 2014, 04:50:29 PM »
1. the time it takes to effectively use that ord is 2-4 bomb runs.  :old:
2. If you get to hq  :uhoh
3. any bomber is a relative lancstuka  :lol
4. any bomber is a suicide lanc.  :rofl
5. towns will always be paved with ords. everyone needs a good carpet bomb now and then.  :rock

I find bomber perks are more precious than fighter perks since the b-29 came out.  b-29=bye bye perks. Also, anyone willing to put the time in that bb shooting death trap should be rewarded with a adequate bomb load.   :cheers:

-1 to perking the working mans bomber.  :salute

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #118 on: April 03, 2014, 05:23:44 PM »
I wasnt mocking any one person in general. But we do have a trend going here against bombers.

And if you have ever read any of my posts about this Lankstuka thing There is nobody more against their use this way then am I. I think no 4 engined bomber should be able to dive bomb. Level only!

But perking such a slow helpless bomber? No way.

No arguments there.  I'm not exactly sure how to stop Lancstukas, other than allowing bomb drops while only in the bomb site.  But even then to really have an affect there would need to be a time delay from when entering the bomb site mode to actually being able to drop bombs.  So here we are, just how deep do we/they want to go to usher "proper" usage of heavy 4 engine bombers.  How would they regulate bombers like the Ju88 and He111, they both have level bomb sites but both were used in shallow dive/low level bombing runs against static targets.  4 engine vs 2 engine?  I certainly understand HTC simplistic approach, it makes things much easier.
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Wiley

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Re: Lancasters perk them?
« Reply #119 on: April 03, 2014, 05:35:07 PM »
No arguments there.  I'm not exactly sure how to stop Lancstukas, other than allowing bomb drops while only in the bomb site.  But even then to really have an affect there would need to be a time delay from when entering the bomb site mode to actually being able to drop bombs.  So here we are, just how deep do we/they want to go to usher "proper" usage of heavy 4 engine bombers.  How would they regulate bombers like the Ju88 and He111, they both have level bomb sites but both were used in shallow dive/low level bombing runs against static targets.  4 engine vs 2 engine?  I certainly understand HTC simplistic approach, it makes things much easier.

Modeling whatever dive angle limitation there was IRL seems to me to be the simplest.  If the plane could divebomb, it should divebomb.  If it couldn't, it shouldn't.

It might be more difficult to code than it appears on first blush though.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11