External Views for Fighters in MA

[Tinkles]

 

I wouldn't mind F3 being removed from everywhere (including bombers) except in the TA. 

[BnZs]

Actually, if you look, IIRC, in E. Jablonski's book, "Flying Fortress" (am excellent book, imj - it included a lot of reference info from the B-17 in back, including manuals) you'll see a pic of an engine-out P-38 that has tucked itself safely into a formation of 17s.

Well that's once, in a very special case. Not fighters diving towards the bombers they are supposed to be escorting, which are typically more dangerous than the fighters in Aces High.

[PJ_Godzilla]

I won't disagree. I doubt irl that many bombers upped from airfields to serve as "gunships"/mobile ack. The speeds are a bit high w/r real cruising speeds as well.

What, in your opinion, accounts for the increased accuracy, in game, of bomber guns? Is it the lack of random aim-affecting "noise" (eg, structural vibration, aero gusts, etc) or is it something else?

[BnZs]

What, in your opinion, accounts for the increased accuracy, in game, of bomber guns? Is it the lack of random aim-affecting "noise" (eg, structural vibration, aero gusts, etc) or is it something else?

Exactly. For all intents and purposes, a flex-mounted gun on an airplane in auto-level is mounted on the ground. For example, in the WWI arena, the F.2B "Head on and then run away shooting from the observer's position" "experten"" are literally working with *half* the firepower of the other planes in the form of their rear mounted flex gun. Yet fighting them under those circumstances is a dangerous tossup at best, for all you have two guns to their one.

I also don't believe that 6-12 individual humans manning the guns and individually choosing targets would on average be as lethal as having all the guns slaved to the aim of one decent gunner, as is the case in AHII.

[Kazaa]

 

[PJ_Godzilla]

BnZ, easiest thing to do would be to introduce some low amplitude noise to each flex mount. This could likely be approximated or, better yet, you could actually get accel data or point mobility data for various locations in a test aircraft.

I like the idea of introducing real-life noise in any number of places within ah. For example, what if there were reliability data for the various major aircraft systems -on a type/model specific basis? Suddenly, the manufacturer of the aircraft makes a difference. I mean: I'm sure some guns/engines/airframes had better statistical reliability than others.

What about introducing low-amplitude noise to the local air velocity?

[Karnak]

BnZ, easiest thing to do would be to introduce some low amplitude noise to each flex mount. This could likely be approximated or, better yet, you could actually get accel data or point mobility data for various locations in a test aircraft.

I like the idea of introducing real-life noise in any number of places within ah. For example, what if there were reliability data for the various major aircraft systems -on a type/model specific basis? Suddenly, the manufacturer of the aircraft makes a difference. I mean: I'm sure some guns/engines/airframes had better statistical reliability than others.

What about introducing low-amplitude noise to the local air velocity?

The problem lies in the fact that the data is not available for many aircraft.  HTC would need to hodgepodge it in there, making guesses or just standardizing on something like "fixed fuselage guns have no flex, wing guns have x flex, turret guns have y flex and flexible mounted guns have z flex."

The problem after that, using how bad the dispersion on B-17s were as a basis for effect in game, is convincing people to spend the time to use bombers other than perk farming for Ar234s and Mosquito Mk XVI's which bypass the whole issue.

[PJ_Godzilla]

The problem lies in the fact that the data is not available for many aircraft.  HTC would need to hodgepodge it in there, making guesses or just standardizing on something like "fixed fuselage guns have no flex, wing guns have x flex, turret guns have y flex and flexible mounted guns have z flex."

Of course. I'd take the bet, for example, that no such data exists for the flex mounts on a JU-88 or He-111. Doing testing on any surviving flying examples (thought there was an He-111 or two but I understand one of 'em bit the dust not too long ago) would be do-able, given unlimited cash and willing owners, probably neither of which obtain.

Ultimately, probably some uniformly-applied noise would be the most easily developed and most equitable. A man needs to dream, though...

[Karnak]

What, then, is the solution to the following problem?  The one where bomber's ability to defend themselves is significantly reduced?  If the K/D ratio for B-17Gs drops from 0.33/1 to 0.11/1 (and the He111's drops from 0.1/1 to 0.03/1) against fighters how do you motivate people to use bombers?  The sorties generally take longer as it is.  Reducing survival rates further seems a hard sell.

[Groth]

 Took my 2 sons (grade school age than) to see HE-111 at grass field when it was in Miss. Had Rolls Merlin engines..cookie sheets on ground under to help collect dripping oil. We got BIG tour..no one else there at the time..cockpit/bombader station, upper gun mount, vertical slots in bomb bay obvious in main cabin..
 Heard it crashed on take-off year or so later..lost power..killed all crew aboard. Sad.
 Had been Franco's private plane..only reason it survived that long..
          JGroth

[PJ_Godzilla]

What, then, is the solution to the following problem?  The one where bomber's ability to defend themselves is significantly reduced?  If the K/D ratio for B-17Gs drops from 0.33/1 to 0.11/1 (and the He111's drops from 0.1/1 to 0.03/1) against fighters how do you motivate people to use bombers?  The sorties generally take longer as it is.  Reducing survival rates further seems a hard sell.

You'd offset partially by also introducing noise, though of lower amplitude, to the fixed mounts. Then you'd increase the perks for bombing by the same factor of 3 by which you've reduced their survivability. Finally, you'd make perks perks, as opposed to segregated by class of aircraft.

Still, admittedly, a tough sell...