Author Topic: Weak peeps..  (Read 10434 times)

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2014, 11:07:10 AM »
QFT

OK, I profess my ignorance. What does that mean?
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2014, 11:09:13 AM »
OK, I profess my ignorance. What does that mean?

Quoted for truth

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2014, 12:31:17 PM »
I'm less sure it's true. I don't know that AH will ever draw the pachinko crowd of young ones, nor am I certain that the young ones who come in are of that contingent. IMO, if you're not into WWII Air Combat, this game would have little appeal.

However, my assertion, like Cthulhu's, is based on anecdotal experience. Without some kind of feedback or survey of the customer base, I think we're unmoored from data. 

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Offline BnZs

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2014, 01:00:57 PM »
One would think that the pool of men young and old who are fascinated by airplanes would remain a relative constant. I came to this game after playing many civilian flight sims, then many stand-alone combat sims because it is the ultimate expression of applying aerodynamic principles in strategic competition.

I'm less sure it's true. I don't know that AH will ever draw the pachinko crowd of young ones, nor am I certain that the young ones who come in are of that contingent. IMO, if you're not into WWII Air Combat, this game would have little appeal.

However, my assertion, like Cthulhu's, is based on anecdotal experience. Without some kind of feedback or survey of the customer base, I think we're unmoored from data. 


"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Skyyr

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2014, 01:19:36 PM »
I'm less sure it's true. I don't know that AH will ever draw the pachinko crowd of young ones, nor am I certain that the young ones who come in are of that contingent.

There's certainly a disconnect in this community, primarily from the, for lack of better terms, the older demographic of it. Most people here seem to be attached to their familiarity and preferences of gaming, without realizing that's precisely why this game is declining (speaking objectively in regards to numbers).

Previously, we had a few WWII air combat MMO's - heck, just air combat MMO's. All of them provided different opportunities and different gaming avenues, but they all also had their quirks. To pick one meant you had to decide to adopt the good and the bad.

Now, with the rise of WT and WoWP, we don't really have that anymore. These games are based on long-time studies and trends of what gamers want - there is quite literally a science behind it. And with that, you have 95% (a quickly-drawn estimation, but probably close to being accurate) of gamers going to these games. The gamers may or may not have prior interest in WWII air combat, but that is almost inconsequential, as those games are now setting the standard for what the genre is.

Again, when you have literally half a billion dollars (or more) being spent and made by WT and WoWP, they quite literally set the standard for the market.

Now, to be clear - I do not want this game to be WT or WoWP. They're gamey, they have crappy advancement/skill models, and unrealistic. But, those are surface items - really, they are. The core of the game is the way that they market and keep players, and you can apply that to almost any game. That is their business. Even IL2 is moving towards HUD-type displays, premium/LE planes, cinematic trailers - it works, it simply works.

New players don't care so much about how easy or hard a flight model is - certainly, there is some degree that it affects them; but their primary concern is in accessibility, in immersion. Graphics are hugely a part of this. Your new simmer doesn't care if a plane feels like it stalls correctly when the graphics look worse than a game he can play on his gaming console - immersion comes primarily from sight and sound (again, based on science). Guess what? WT and WoWP nails this. Surreal trailers showing air to air combat, explosions, glory - this is what gamers want. They want to feel like a WWII hero. This game has nothing even remotely close to that, while WT and WoWP have trailers that cost upwards of $100,000 to produce.

These new, young, up and comer players are the only people who will keep your sim, regardless of which one it is, afloat. You can hate them, disregard them, whatever you'd like; the cold reality is that they will determine if your game succeeds or if it shuts down. And the demographic of these gamers are mainly players whose only experience is WT and WoWP. If you can't match or beat it in something other than flight model, you've lost them, as it requires a good amount of experience to begin to appreciate the difference in flight models to begin with.

They don't care if the flight model is an arcade Atari game or Aces High on steroids, as long as they get their beautiful aircraft, glorious moments of victory, and the experience of feeling like a WWII pilot. This is what people seem to be missing. This is what other games offer readily.

It is what it is. I wish people would realize this and then actually address the problem, instead of burying their heads in the sand while making up excuses why player numbers being 1/2 to 1/3 of what they were previously is somehow a sign of success.

That line of thinking can only continue for so long. What is 1/2 of 0? ;)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 01:36:32 PM by Skyyr »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2014, 01:40:36 PM »
I've said it once and I'll say it again: Whenever I buy magazines like "Air Classic" or "Flight Journal", whenever I look at gun camera footage on Youtube, I see advertisements for War Thunder. I never see advertisements for Aces High. This is a problem. That little commercial on History Channel that aired during "Dogfights" was the most brilliant move HTC ever made, that alone was probably responsible for the relatively massive peak in numbers that I was a part of when I first joined in 2006. You just can't do without advertising.

And another thing: Maybe you people out there think potential customers who judge a flight sim based primarily on graphics instead of flight model are dipsticks. And maybe you are right. However, such judgments are MEANINGLESS, these people's subscription fees will still serve to keep the doors open if we can get them.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 01:42:49 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2014, 01:49:03 PM »
Skyyr sums up the dilemma perfectly. I saw the same scenario played out with another online game I used to play called Ultima Online. The game play was top notch,  the losses REAL (getting PK'D or "player killed" was a real possibility), and there was a lot of in-game knowledge you picked up just to stay alive. But it wasn't glitzy, you didn't get a "trophy" every time you accomplished the most mundane task, and the graphics weren't stunning. It was quickly eclipsed by more kid friendly games like Everquest and WoW. IMHO, the superficial will win out every time.

I really believe this is endemic of society in general, but that's for another discussion.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2014, 01:57:40 PM »
But I'm an optimist. I believe that by overlaying the graphical glitz onto the substance that is the flight model Aces High can survive and prosper.  :aok

Skyyr sums up the dilemma perfectly. I saw the same scenario played out with another online game I used to play called Ultima Online. The game play was top notch,  the losses REAL (getting PK'D or "player killed" was a real possibility), and there was a lot of in-game knowledge you picked up just to stay alive. But it wasn't glitzy, you didn't get a "trophy" every time you accomplished the most mundane task, and the graphics weren't stunning. It was quickly eclipsed by more kid friendly games like Everquest and WoW. IMHO, the superficial will win out every time.

I really believe this is endemic of society in general, but that's for another discussion.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2014, 02:44:07 PM »
But I'm an optimist. I believe that by overlaying the graphical glitz onto the substance that is the flight model Aces High can survive and prosper.  :aok

I hope you're right.
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline Bruv119

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2014, 02:49:14 PM »
skyyr makes some very good points but I feel all this talk of a massive marketing push / gameplay enticements is on hold until the new version is released.   

No point promoting something if it is going to be replaced by newer and shinier.
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Offline Nathan60

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2014, 05:08:32 PM »
skyyr makes some very good points but I feel all this talk of a massive marketing push / gameplay enticements is on hold until the new version is released.   

No point promoting something if it is going to be replaced by newer and shinier.
I would agree with this, plus lets be honest this update may be a little past due. Yes ,all of us that play the game now how awesome it can be, but in today's word you need a little eye candy.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2014, 05:19:31 PM »
I agree with skyyr's point. However,it is my unmoored belief that:

1. There is a contingent of players who care about realism and flight model fidelity
2 that attracting the "non-caring" counterpart is a poison pill for AH.

W/r item 2, once AH abandons or compromises its fidelity realism stance, it becomes "just another MMO" and will be uncompetitive with the big arcade-y players in that space.

Remember, there are two ways to succeed in business, generally: cost and differentiation. I don't think AH is the MMO equivalent of WalMart nor do I think it can compete in that space.

Meanwhile, given the contingent to which BnZs refers and given our customer base, I find little to suggest that we're maxed out in contingent 1 above.

Bottom line: there is no dilemma, IMO. The niche space is HT's. I just don't know if he has the resources to capture it.
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2014, 05:30:32 PM »
However,it is my unmoored belief that:

1. There is a contingent of players who care about realism and flight model fidelity
2 that attracting the "non-caring" counterpart is a poison pill for AH.


I agree, actually. The primary challenge is that the players who care are, for the most part, already here. It is a finite, and dwindling, demographic. There are certainly future players who might join our ranks, but you have to attract them to begin with.

As it stands, the only people who will come over to Aces High are those with either a huge interest in WWII and WWII air combat, or those interested in WWII air combat sims. The former is, unfortunately, becoming non-existent as we move farther and farther away from that point in history. That leaves us competing with other air combat sims, and therein lies the problem.

We can't rely solely on being unique, as that is a dead-end road. We have to be both relevant and unique, and the only way to stay relevant is to maintain interest with the current air combat sim demographic; that demographic is chiefly interested in WT and WoWP.

Therefore, we must follow a similar route if we're to avoid becoming irrelevant. By "similar," I mean that we adopt the things that allow us to become "interesting" without changing who we are. The flight model is something that we should never change - that is uniquely Aces High. However, graphics, a more friendly UI, more accessible peripheral integration, marketing, a more active/modern online presence, etc. - those are sorely needed. Having those allows us to get enough people in the door to give us a chance - once we have that, then we'll retain the players that we want, that we need.

Just my .02.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 05:34:52 PM by Skyyr »
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Offline lunatic1

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2014, 05:36:36 PM »
now-back to the subject of bomb and bail--dev's-x-rejects started this b&b stuff..so now alot of other people do it
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Weak peeps..
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2014, 05:39:07 PM »
now-back to the subject of bomb and bail--dev's-x-rejects started this b&b stuff..

they didn't start this at all.
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