HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?

[SkyRock]

all I did was post my thoughts on HOs in the MA...which was responded to as if Id called someone's mama a name..

which was responded to by who?  the entire muppet squad?  you sound like a giddy lil girl who just found a new man crush... and you're showing your true colors a bit.. don't you think?   

[BnZs]

Regarding scoring I'm afraid you completely take me out of my province there. I've played this game on and off for over four years now and it may shock you to know I have no idea how the AH scoring system works beyond the obvious k/d ratio and hits percentage. I have no idea why there is a separate attack / fighter score and in fact I don't want to know. I have a far simpler / more sophisticated was to track my progress. And I use the word progress more as a placeholder in the absence of a better one.

What I'm saying is that the high scorers in the game don't simply hang out and wait for the odd lone goon or lanc formation to fly under them. If they did that it would make them very non-competitive on the kills-per-hour ranking. Here is what goes into fighter score: kill-death ratio, kills per sortie, hit percentage, kill time, and kill points. So to rank high, you have to significantly more than you die, kill a lot per sortie(okay, you have to rearm alot, bluntly. I think this is a flawed metric), hit what you aim at, kill often, and kill a lot in a tour. So while "gaming the game" does go  into a high score, you still have to be a master of your airplane and it's guns if you want to see your name on the front page. Not everyone could do it, quite the opposite.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/qlpo3ef8m3p96bw/Brewster_fight.ahf

Hmmm...you are an excellent pilot in what is not a bad turner itself, he mismanaged this throttle and closure rate pretty badly. You are clearly the superior pilot. Yet he manages to cut inside you on a couple of turns and even briefly take your dead six and ping you, via having a better angles fighter, right before committing the worse of overshoots. After that, he takes the vertical giving you a shot. Your cannons and aim means that's all you need. Probably even just by keeping in his right hand turn he could have held you off and eventually come around in the nose-to-tail chase if you had followed, not too sure about turn rate for the Brew vs. Ki. With better throttle management and/or better gunnery, the better angles fighter would have won this one without doing too much besides pulling on the pole. So nothing in this film really conflicts with what I said-In general it takes more experience and better gunnery for the "energy" fighter to close the deal than it does for the "angles" fighter.
[/quote]

[Zerstorer]

which was responded to by who?  the entire muppet squad?  you sound like a giddy lil girl who just found a new man crush... and you're showing your true colors a bit.. don't you think?   

And you sound like a person trying desperately to find something to make another person upset. Try harder.

[kappa]

Ah yes...here they come. When one cant actually argue the point logically...the insults come out. Standard procedure right out of that trolling post Jugger made on the private forum, eh? What was it..."Never, ever let the lowly noobs win. Never admit you are wrong!" Or something similar?

Next up should be the mass posts from the rest of the squad.  

ahhhh.. did you ascertain I was talking about you?

There is no point to argue here zerstorer.. Why does everything have to be a fight?

Pretty simple actually.. Skyyr says in so many words.. 'I see what you guys are doing lead turning instead of shooting me in the face at merge'  'When you do that you're just missing an opportunity to shoot at me so I take the shot'  'You're not avoiding the ho shot, you're trying to get an angle on me and I'm going to shoot at you for doing that'... pretty simple..

Skyyr did have about 20secs of brilliance last night.. He got 2 of us pretty quick.. I had to elevate him beyond 'general noob' after it.. Was nice flying..  Hes done it in just over 6-7months I guess..  But 10years?  Just dayum... Really, 10years?

[TequilaChaser]

ahhhh.. did you ascertain I was talking about you?

There is no point to argue here zerstorer.. Why does everything have to be a fight?

Pretty simple actually.. Skyyr says in so many words.. 'I see what you guys are doing lead turning instead of shooting me in the face at merge'  'When you do that you're just missing an opportunity to shoot at me so I take the shot'  'You're not avoiding the ho shot, you're trying to get an angle on me and I'm going to shoot at you for doing that'... pretty simple..

Skyyr did have about 20secs of brilliance last night.. He got 2 of us pretty quick.. I had to elevate him beyond 'general noob' after it.. Was nice flying..  Hes done it in just over 6-7months I guess..  But 10years?  Just dayum... Really, 10years?

ROFL...................

heya kappa!

here I thought this whole fiasco of a thread was just between skyyr & ARSNishi.....

and it seems so many others ( not you or many others specifically, that has actually posted to this particular thread ) seem to be jerking this thread and hijacking it for their own amusement or personal flame throwing or flame baiting cause.....

it is down right pathetic if you ask me....


anyhows...was some fun fights last night kappa, dedalos, lazer, peppr, MotCH and others who were there..... 

bout time Skuzzy locked this thread for a majority of reasons if you want my thoughts about it....

Cheers kappa , until we have some more fun AH dogfights

<S>

TC

[Skyyr]

Pretty simple actually.. Skyyr says in so many words.. 'I see what you guys are doing lead turning instead of shooting me in the face at merge'  'When you do that you're just missing an opportunity to shoot at me so I take the shot'  'You're not avoiding the ho shot, you're trying to get an angle on me and I'm going to shoot at you for doing that'... pretty simple..

Pretty much. Good fights, by the way - enjoyed them. -=S=-

[glzsqd]

This is all I see whenever I read these threads.....

[-ammo-]

^^^^

[nrshida]

I have no wish to subject my views on anyone else, and I readily admit that others have different philosophies - I've never debated this. However, when someone comes in and claims that "Well, the 'proper' way is to do it this way" (I'm paraphrasing the argument that the MA is about fights and honor), then I will always point out that they are, in fact, arbitrary and deviant. That was my only point.

Yet again, the irony lies in the fact of others claiming we're asserting our philosophy, when in reality it's really them arguing how theirs is correct ("you could've given him a good fight, but you didn't!") when it, objectively, is not. It might be their preference, and I recognize that, but the validity ends there (see below).

There's no irony. I'm not saying you are trying to convert others to adopt your flying style, I'm saying when you use post your small films featuring <a famous AH pilot> being defeated by you, regardless of the method, nature of shot or situation, you are trying to force your philosophy on others. You are trying to assert it doesn't matter what they say about you you shot them down and have a film. Even one victory out of five seems to suffice. In this regard you're a bit like a more sophisticated Midway, which is an icky thought in itself

Take that film you posted of fighting and defeating Bruv109 in that K-4 - K-4 fight. That was the most skillful piece of ACM I've seen you use so far. As a film in itself you could have just left it at that and there'd be none of this friction or suspicion that you're basically a griefer. However, you used the film in PMs to various people illustrating your point how you think Bruv is a knob-jockey and how you are better than him. There was some talk of a long term plan to teach him a lesson but let's not go into that  

Tour winners are determined based on stats. In fact, the homepage says, quote, "Latest Tour Winners."...

Yeah but that's still just nothing more than your personal interpretation of the intention (obviously you associate with others who agree). I see the score as optional, not really proving much of anything and the arenas a virtual environment offering an activity more like crazy golf than American football or a practice dojo. I don't focus on results at all even in my own individual fights like the one I posted. I don't imply anything about my opponents except that they are human and I like to interact with them through the medium of ACM.

'Winners'. It's a bit of an abstract and primitive view don't you think? You mention objectives, I have those too but perhaps they are much more internal. I'm quite sure that by your measures I am deviating the game, but I (and evidently others) just disagree with you.


Let me ask you something Skyyr, and I feel I have to qualify this by saying there is absolutely no smack talk or egotistical motivation involved in this question at all. Since you place such a high value in score indicating that player x is superior to player x, isn't it then the case by YOUR VALUE SYSTEM that Bruv119 is a much better pilot than you? I mean he is on the 'winner' board month in and month out isn't he?




*Edited for dyslexia

[nrshida]

What I'm saying is that the high scorers in the game don't simply hang out and wait for the odd lone goon or lanc formation to fly under them. If they did that it would make them very non-competitive on the kills-per-hour ranking. Here is what goes into fighter score: kill-death ratio, kills per sortie, hit percentage, kill time, and kill points. So to rank high, you have to significantly more than you die, kill a lot per sortie(okay, you have to rearm alot, bluntly. I think this is a flawed metric), hit what you aim at, kill often, and kill a lot in a tour. So while "gaming the game" does go  into a high score, you still have to be a master of your airplane and it's guns if you want to see your name on the front page. Not everyone could do it, quite the opposite.

BnZ I'm not really qualified to discuss the scoring system in any detail. I think I know what you mean about pilots who do well with score and what that says about their flying. I don't believe I suggested timidness was part of the equation. I simply compared the two styles of BnZ and TnB and tried to make the case that the former is an overall 'safer' approach.

Hmmm...you are an excellent pilot in what is not a bad turner itself, he mismanaged this throttle and closure rate pretty badly. You are clearly the superior pilot. Yet he manages to cut inside you on a couple of turns and even briefly take your dead six and ping you, via having a better angles fighter, right before committing the worse of overshoots. After that, he takes the vertical giving you a shot. Your cannons and aim means that's all you need. Probably even just by keeping in his right hand turn he could have held you off and eventually come around in the nose-to-tail chase if you had followed, not too sure about turn rate for the Brew vs. Ki. With better throttle management and/or better gunnery, the better angles fighter would have won this one without doing too much besides pulling on the pole. So nothing in this film really conflicts with what I said-In general it takes more experience and better gunnery for the "energy" fighter to close the deal than it does for the "angles" fighter.

Thanks for watching the film and your feedback. I didn't post it because I disagree with your point. I just wanted to evidence that I am not as inexperienced with this mismatch, even if I do it at the more extreme end of the spectrum.

 

[Skyyr]

There's no irony. I'm not saying you are trying to convert others to adopt your flying style, I'm saying when you use post your small films featuring <a famous AH pilot> being defeated by you, regardless of the method, nature of shot or situation, you are trying to force your philosophy on others. You are trying to assert it doesn't matter what they say about you you shot them down and have a film. Even one victory out of five seems to suffice.

I rarely post films of anything but actual dogfights. The only three occasions that I've posted films showing kills without context were 1) a film of INK HO'ing, because he claimed HO'ing was dishonorable (and I posted proof showing he actually initiated one), 2) the film in this thread, where I was accused of taking a non-existent h2h shot, and 3) a film of Lilmak initiating a HO (after accusing us of doing so). All other films that I have posted show the entire context of the fight.

I'm also not sure where you get the one in five statistic from. I've not killed nor died to Nish until this last tour, and the score is at 4-2 my lead (I just looked up the stats, as I didn't know what they were).

Take that film you posted of fighting and defeating Bruv109 in that K-4 - K-4 fight. That was the most skillful piece of ACM I've seen you use so far. As a film in itself you could have just left it at that and there'd be none of this friction or suspicion that you're basically a griefer. However, you used the film in PMs to various people illustrating your point how you think Bruv is a knob-jockey and how you are better than him. There was some talk of a long term plan to teach him a lesson but let's not go into that  

PM will be shortly sent - you might change your mind on who's the griefer

'Winners'. It's a bit of an abstract and primitive view don't you think? You mention objectives, I have those too but perhaps they are much more internal. I'm quite sure that by your measures I am deviating the game, but I (and evidently others) just disagree with you.

We can agree to disagree - no harm in that.

Let me ask you something Skyyr, and I feel I have to qualify this by saying there is absolutely no smack talk or egotistical motivation involved in this question at all. Since you place such a high value in score indicating that player x is superior to player x, isn't it then the case by YOUR VALUE SYSTEM that Bruv119 is a much better pilot than you? I mean he is on the 'winner' board month in and month out isn't he?

I never said that score was an indicator of skill (please feel free to re-read this post as well as all of my previous ones), and it's a bit disingenuous to even attempt to spin my statement in that direction. Score is simply an indicator of success, "winning" if you will in a game. By your assertion, every Knight that wins the war must be better than every losing Bishop, and so forth. Nowhere did I imply winning and skill to be the same, I simply said that people cannot arbitrarily expect other players to play by their ideologies of "skill" when they completely differ from (and many times conflict with) the end-game objectives.

What score does denote is success. Is he more successful? Yes, but then again, one would hope that someone with nearly a decade of experience at a game would be slightly more successful than someone who hasn't even played a single full year, especially given the non-weighted ranking system of the game.

[nrshida]

I'm also not sure where you get the one in five statistic from. I've not killed nor died to Nish until this last tour, and the score is at 4-2 my lead (I just looked up the stats, as I didn't know what they were).

The K-4 film. There was some background I was informed.

PM will be shortly sent - you might change your mind on who's the griefer

Well I try to avoid getting involved in feuding. Griefing is a mortal cartoon sin of course. You have to spend all of cartoon eternity in the hell of the upside-down leaky toilet.

We can agree to disagree - no harm in that.

Agreed. Very civilized 

I never said that score was an indicator of skill (please feel free to re-read this post as well as all of my previous ones), and it's a bit disingenuous to even attempt to spin my statement in that direction. Score is simply an indicator of success, "winning" if you will in a game. By your assertion, every Knight that wins the war must be better than every losing Bishop, and so forth. Nowhere did I imply winning and skill to be the same, I simply said that people cannot arbitrarily expect other players to play by their ideologies of "skill" when they completely differ from (and many times conflict with) the end-game objectives.

What score does denote is success. Is he more successful? Yes, but then again, one would hope that someone with nearly a decade of experience at a game would be slightly more successful than someone who hasn't even played a single full year, especially given the non-weighted ranking system of the game.

Yeah I wasn't really trying to spin anything, just wanted to see how you reacted to the question. I know you haven't been here too long but you have a decade in the Fighter Ace thing wasn't it?

Well, an interesting conversation. I understand you a lot more now. Enjoy Aces High and try to stay out of trouble 

[F77]

I just noticed something - just an observation.  You called the pilot by name on the vox announcing your kill, just wondering why really.

Most pilots I've come across call aircraft type down, i.e. "Spit down".  This way everyone knows that it's the spit that's out of the action.  GVer's tend to call by player, i,e, "F77 down".  Probably because there's a greater awareness of personal threat.  Having said that you sometime hear "Spit down" pause "oh wow it was so and so"

If you're recording all your films, why don't you give making a movie a go, like Dolby.  A little practice and it's good fun.

[ARSNishi]

Not in the least. My goal of posting was simply to confirm that Nishizawa's claim of "h2h" was incorrect, which it was.

Your initial goal was to portray me as a HO whiner.  Once the facts did not bear that out, and you saw what a hard sell that was going to be, You decided to walk it back and refine it to the above stated goal.   

  The absurd irony to this whole thread is that someone was so eager to be judged "not guilty"....(in this one instance where no "HO whine" was recorded) ...of a practice he so proudly embraces in virtually every other instance. 

 Equally ironic, the fact that I wasn't at the controls is the only reason this court of public opinion concluded "h2h" didn't fit in my compliment....   Had I been at the controls..  This whole fiasco would have been rendered moot....  We would have been protractor verified,  nose on nose....  I would have broke at the last minute and avoided your incoming fire, inevitable regardless of my orientation....   The most likely outcome as evidenced by our many prior encounters earlier that day.....  No easy kill.... No film....   No need for sarcastically complimenting an easy kill of an unpiloted plane from me...  No need for a "look at me, I killed Nishizawa" thread.   

 The absurd irony was amusing and entertaining, but the ever increasing absurdity has become tiresome. 

 Good day

[Skyyr]

I just noticed something - just an observation.  You called the pilot by name on the vox announcing your kill, just wondering why really.

If you're recording all your films, why don't you give making a movie a go, like Dolby.  A little practice and it's good fun.

Typically, pilots stay in their aircraft of choice for some time. If there are, for example, two KI-84's (which there were, the other was JUDAS), it lets my wingman know who got sent back to the tower. That way, we know not to expect X player for 3-5 minutes per grid of travel time and that any other similar aircraft encountered during that time are a different player. It aids in target prioritization and ID'ing flight styles, of sorts.

We did make a movie - it was our first attempt at a compilation. Kruel has an even better one in the works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XscUWDeU-qg