Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol

[Gman]

My co worker was struck by 3 rounds of AP Russian steel core from a PK at close range in his paracleet armor, and it stopped all of them on the same plate insert even though they were in very, very close proximity.  There are many, many cases out there in google land of the plates absorbing multiple hits.  They don't shatter into pieces, not at all.

I've got some vids I'll put up from BW's armor vs ammo shoot in 2006 or so, you can see various AP rounds being defeated by the plates, and many were tested with multiple hits.  

Like I said, 5.7 or any pistol round for that matter has no chance of defeating most modern armor, and even older 3a level stuff it usually won't defeat with any regularity.  Soft armor of the 2 to 3 class, yes, it'll defeat it, but so will 9mm 75 gr RUAG frangible going 1600 fps, both front and back panels.  

Making a decision to buy 5.7 if the expectation or reasoning like you first were saying is to defeat the modern hard armor the Chinese and virtually every other army is trying to equip its troops with is a fail, as it can't, no pistol round can.  Like I said, it will breech other barriers that many common pistol rounds can't, but vs lvl 4 armor - not a chance.

There are piles of vids of cheap 200$ or less plates taking multiple 30 cal rifle hits at point blank range and still stopping them all.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRGpQ6-rz8 is just a single example, there are dozens out there.  In this vid 2 308 rounds are fired into the exact same hole - the plate still stops the 2nd round.  And this is cheap stuff compared to Dragon scale or Paracleet systems.  When you say I underestimate 5.7, I think you're way overestimating it.  762 Nato will vastly outperform 5.7 in every measurable way in terms of penetration, yet even cheap plates will stop it, so how does 5.7 have a prayer out of a pistol barrel at that limited velocity?  Even from a P90 or rifle, 57 is no better than an SS109 556 Nato round in terms of penetrating power.  All 5.7 was designed to do was defeat light soft body armor that was designed to stop 9,40,and 45 from a pistol or short barrel shoulder supported weapon.  And that's it, it is no wonder round with some special AP component that will blast through lvl 4 armor.  Again, it can't even defeat 3a soft armor with the AP round, and has no chance with the standard FMJ projectile.

[GScholz]

I'll take your word for it. Our armor back in the '90s were rated to stop a 7.62 N ball at 100 metres. Closer than that it would penetrate the ceramic plate and kevlar. The rest of the vest would only stop typical pistol calibres and shrapnel.

[Widewing]

The .45 ACP lacks stopping power. Handguns in general lack stopping power. The one possible exception Ive seen has been a .357 mag wheelgun with 125 grn JHPs. The copper put the barrel of it to a armed robbers chest and literally blew chunks of his heart out his back.

But was it the caliber? The gun? The pressures of the magnum up against the target? The ammo type? And does it matter? No handgun is very efficient at stopping anyone unless the rounds are very well placed. Even then Ive seen criminals do some prolific things after getting shot even after good shot placement. Magnify all this when you combine combat conditions with it. Something has already gone seriously wrong if you have a handgun in your hand in a war.

No possible alternative to the 9mm will give you a cost effective edge if your shot placement is off. If your shot placement is on then you dont need anything but a 9mm. A higher pressure round will cost more both in terms of ammo and training and in unit replacement due to higher pressures. A 9mm is a gun EVERYONE can shoot. We have a lot of females and kids less familiar with guns joining up then many of you are. Just cause a lot of you can shoot the .357 SIG well doesnt mean it would be easy to train up tens of thousands of troops in just a few weeks with the round. Or the 10mm. "The 10mm"?

Had a 17 kid shot in the lung with a .40 once. He ran 2 blocks before he dropped and he lost his blood pressure in the ambulance. I figure he's History right? So who do I see on the corner 3 weeks later minus a lung? Handguns just arent very efficient. We've had to many "fire 2/watch the BG drop/admire you shots" incidents where the bad guy doesnt do what he is supposed to which isnt very admirable. One guy we shot 19 times with a 9mm, numerous in the chest, and he still lived and fired back. The guy is alive today.

Starting with 9mm/.38 cal shot placement becomes everything. As does shooting until the BG goes down or you hear "click". The 9mm is a perfectly adequate self defense round when your trained up to be accurate. I carry it almost everyday. Im surprised the Military is even having this discussion.

Because the best way to win a gun fight is to bring a long gun.

Not long after it was accepted by the FBI, I had a chance to put several hundred rounds through a 10mm S&W. Stout recoil, such that frames and slides were failing in the field. It is an effective round, but not much fun to shoot. Shooting 10mm in an MP5/10, it was a delight. My preferred handgun cartridge is .357 Magnum. Tied with the .44 Magnum for 97% one hit effectiveness (when hit in center of mass). In the mid 1980s, I bought a Rossi made Winchester 1892 clone, specifically chambered in .357 Mag. With hand loads (21 grains of W296 under a 125 grain JHP), it generates just over 2,000 ft/sec MV out of a 16" barrel. That's not very far behind my Win '94 in .30-30. That '92 lever gun is a great home defense rifle. Short, light, fast action and far more lethal than any common handgun. It's backed up with a 12 ga. Remington 870 tactical shotgun.

Since before the Civil War, the US Army has suffered through the endless debate over caliber and power of hand guns. A cap and ball 1860 Colt New Model Army is still quite lethal. It shoots a 144 grain or 230 grain ball or conical. With the ball, it can generate over 1,200 fps with a .451 diameter lead ball with 35 grains of FFF powder. A Colt Walker, loaded with 60 grains, can push that same ball to over 1,600 fps. The .38 Colt round was a failure when it replaced the venerable .45 Long Colt. For about 70 years, the .45 ACP was the choice of the US military, and it served well. Then came the M9 and it arrived to mixed reviews. I tested the Beretta 96D (.40 cal) for the INS in the late 1990s. I never cared for the large frame Berettas. I didn't like the ergonomics, and I managed to break every 96D I ran through reliability testing. Glocks are alright, with a decent trigger. SIGs are very nice too. I really like the balance of the Colt single action .45 "Peacemaker", with 7.5" barrel. The old .45 Long Colt was the deadliest handgun round of its day. It's still lethal enough, with the right bullet. These days, you can buy a high quality clone in .357 Magnum, but the frontier style single action types are really just hobby guns nowadays.

You are right, of course... Whenever possible, bring a rifle to the handgun fight.

[nrshida]

What do the Hague and Geneva conventions say about exploding ammunition for use against personnel?

[danny76]

What do the Hague and Geneva conventions say about exploding ammunition for use against personnel?

They say it's not really cricket


Mind you this was written before brainwashed and drugged up Jihadi's were rushing around the place being unpleasant

[nrshida]

They say it's not really cricket


Mind you this was written before brainwashed and drugged up Jihadi's were rushing around the place being unpleasant

I've been working on a Paradigm shift rubber bullet concept. If you get hit it makes you completely change your mind about everything. I tested it on Zack and now he likes leather shorts and knockwurst. I last saw him flying away in a Bf109 singing the Deutschlandlied. 
 

[danny76]

I've been working on a Paradigm shift rubber bullet concept. If you get hit it makes you completely change your mind about everything. I tested it on Zack and now he likes leather shorts and knockwurst. I last saw him flying away in a Bf109 singing the Deutschlandlied. 
 

I employed a few "rubber bullets" in Northern Ireland, they made the impactee completely change their minds about everything. Sorry Shida, appears to have already been invented.

[nrshida]

I employed a few "rubber bullets" in Northern Ireland, they made the impactee completely change their minds about everything. Sorry Shida, appears to have already been invented.

  I can imagine. What do the Hague and Geneva conventions say about targeting rubber bullets at the goonads?

[FLOOB]

The military hand gun need only be powerful enough to execute the insubordinate enlisted man.

[danny76]

I can imagine. What do the Hague and Geneva conventions say about targeting rubber bullets at the goonads?

Never happened, we targeted the road 5 feet in front of them. That the rounds bounced unpredictably into their knackers was purely coincidental

[TheCrazyOrange]

If penetration is as big of a concern for all calibers as you're predicting, Gman, I'd put my money on tungsten sabo rounds. Or knowing the US, perhaps we use DU.

At least, as you said, until the US says screw the convention, and stops using ball ammo.

Of note though, direct energy weapons may not be impossibly far off. The Navy is set to deploy the first combat lazer system next year. I hear a mach-6 capable rail gun firing a 5kg slug may be deployed by 2018.

[eagl]

The standard beretta currently in use is easy to shoot and reliable in .40.  They wouldn't have to re-train or anything if they changed to the beretta in .40, just start swapping out the guns and ammo.  It has a slight increase in recoil but the gun is so heavy that it's still quite easy to shoot.  I taught my wife to shoot using my beretta 92FS, and I train with it before each USAF qualifying shoot so when I go to qualify with the 9mm, and I usually easily shoot expert.  So that would be a very easy and cost-effective way to swap.  The guns would cost about the same, the training would remain exactly the same with no re-training required, so they'd just pay a bit more for ammo to get a more effective round.  And many law enforcement agencies use .40 so it isn't exactly a rare type.  Might even drive down .40 ammo prices for the rest of us, like it did for 9mm.

[danny76]

The standard beretta currently in use is easy to shoot and reliable in .40.  They wouldn't have to re-train or anything if they changed to the beretta in .40, just start swapping out the guns and ammo.  It has a slight increase in recoil but the gun is so heavy that it's still quite easy to shoot.  I taught my wife to shoot using my beretta 92FS, and I train with it before each USAF qualifying shoot so when I go to qualify with the 9mm, and I usually easily shoot expert.  So that would be a very easy and cost-effective way to swap.  The guns would cost about the same, the training would remain exactly the same with no re-training required, so they'd just pay a bit more for ammo to get a more effective round.  And many law enforcement agencies use .40 so it isn't exactly a rare type.  Might even drive down .40 ammo prices for the rest of us, like it did for 9mm.

You assume that the powers that be are concerned with cost and minimal retraining when re-equipping, rather than with backhanded brown envelopes and heavily greased palms.

Hence the British Army transition to the L85-A1/2 rather than re-equipping with the FN FNC in 5.56, an almost exact product to the FN SLR 7.62 that the Brits already had ample and successful experience with

[danny76]

If penetration is as big of a concern for all calibers as you're predicting, Gman, I'd put my money on tungsten sabo rounds. Or knowing the US, perhaps we use DU.

At least, as you said, until the US says screw the convention, and stops using ball ammo.

Of note though, direct energy weapons may not be impossibly far off. The Navy is set to deploy the first combat lazer system next year. I hear a mach-6 capable rail gun firing a 5kg slug may be deployed by 2018.

Would make the handgun rather unweildy and limit amount of ammunition you could carry, though the 5kg round would have ample stopping power

[smoe]

Would make the handgun rather unweildy and limit amount of ammunition you could carry, though the 5kg round would have ample stopping power

But the mach-6 velocity would be cool for a handgun? This 5kg round would probably need to have a super sharp tipped AP to get through the latest armor.