Author Topic: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human  (Read 12240 times)

Offline Xavier

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 249
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #135 on: August 14, 2014, 02:04:42 PM »
Non sequitur. Why would it be absurd? Looking at it mathematically, it seems far LESSS absurd for one player to control 3 single-seat fighters than for one player to control 3 planes that each required ten crew members.

It would be absurd because bombers were designed to find defense in numbers, flying in tight formation and using defensive armament. Fighters did not.

I have NOT seen that. Per the example I gave earlier in the thread, I have seen many instances where an individual is MORE formidable in a formation of buffs against a fighter than they are in another fighter.

I was talking about the statistics. The k/d ratio for the most used bomber, the lancaster, is about 0,14. A whole formation of bombers is less likely to survive than a lone fighter attacking them. I'm not refering to personal experience but statistics.

And bombers take ALOT more effort to stop than a jabo trying to do the same job, which is purely a matter of fly up behind him (dead six approach is fine), he either pickles his bombs and maneuvers or gets shot down.

Let's take one of the most popular jabos and bombers, the P-38L and Lancaster. At 14K one will be cruising at 350mph and can fight you on equal grounds, while the other is travelling at 270mph and can't even make evasive turns. But yeah, the jabo is absolutely easier to reach and kill  :noid

I should also point out that one guy in a tank, he realistically has almost no defense against jabo/attack planes, yet no one seriously suggests he should be given some kind of "flak drones" to prevent him from being a helpless target. Why is that? It's the same principle as the bomber arguments I hear.

Because you're comparing ground targets with air targets and it's completely different. Also, icon range, commander position, wirbels, etcetera.

I cited an example where one player was easily shot down another player when both were flying dedicated fighters (you know the planes designed to FIGHT, that PROTECTED bombers from other FIGHTERS historically), yet this same player was much more formidable in a flight of NOE B-26s.

So a guy was a better at gunning than flying a fighter. It's almost like some players are better in some kind of planes....sorry, I'm a fan of conspiracy theories! :P

I think bombers doing things more resembling the jobs they were useful for doing,

You mean bombing things? Some of us already do that from time to time. You call it tool-shedding, you mentioned it in a quite irate thread. So you want bombers to bluw stuff up or not? Make up your mind!  :uhoh

bomber interception being more rewarding and not potentially frustrating drudgery,

And here we go again. Don't want to climb to 20K to catch those sneaky lancs? Fine. Don't like cruising over strats in a 152 waiting for that B-29 raid? It's ok. But some of us like it, and we're not gonna start flying at 5K just so you don't have to spend 10 minutes climbing.


and fighter escort actually serving a needed purpose for mission completion, these things would be good for gameplay.

Any bomber pilot is going to lose all his planes if the enemy fighter has a little patience. I'm quite sure most of your frustrations come from a lack of it.

After all, many of us were inspired to love this genre by history of the air battles high over the skies of occupied Europe, so any play that got closer to those battles would be good.

You mean those huge bomber formations being attacked by swarms of fighters? Take away the drones to balance the game (in your mind) and there will be no bombers.

I think the idea that Baldeagle mentioned, of allowing more than 2 players to join buffs as crew members, is a bone I'd definitely like to see thrown in along with anything I'd suggest to "nerf" bombers as you put it. This would allow for a realistic and probably fun team experience...

What nerf would you like to see? But I believe that by a realistic and fun team experience you mean being able to creep up a bomber's six and shoot it down without having to climb too much.

Why would it be even less realistic? Sounds pretty realistic to only have one plane IF you can only have one pilot.

Yet you have no trouble with GVs, shore batteries, CV groups or PT boats. You can turn an entire CV group with a few mouse clips, when in reality those ships were manned by crews in the thousands. Is that realistic? No. It's called a compromise.


We're going in circles over and over again on the same points. I would really like to hear your solutions, how would you nerf the bombers.
Started from the bottom...still at the bottom.

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #136 on: August 14, 2014, 11:39:15 PM »
Don't get him started on auto-ack in which 0 players do the work of dozens.   :rofl
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Xavier

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 249
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #137 on: August 15, 2014, 04:59:22 AM »
Don't get him started on auto-ack in which 0 players do the work of dozens.   :rofl

Outrageous!  :old:
Started from the bottom...still at the bottom.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #138 on: August 15, 2014, 11:30:54 AM »
It would be absurd because bombers were designed to find defense in numbers, flying in tight formation and using defensive armament. Fighters did not.
Indeed, the combat box was designed for defense. So what stops bomber pilots from flying in formation with other bombers?
The basic unit of fighter combat is the wing pair. By the logic of that gives us buff formations, I should get an AI wingman. After all, who can go to the trouble of finding other pilots to fly with  :D
I'm not really in favor of getting rid of formation, I'm just demonstrating what a huge concession formations alone are for bombers, before we even get to discussing other concessions.

I was talking about the statistics. The k/d ratio for the most used bomber, the lancaster, is about 0,14. A whole formation of bombers is less likely to survive than a lone fighter attacking them. I'm not refering to personal experience but statistics.
The k/d ratio of the toughest heavies is about .3 though. That means the formation as a whole has a k/d of about 1. And looking at the formation as a unit makes sense, since it essentially is one unit controlled by one player. If there were some kind of fighter/attack aircraft that had a k/d around 1 AND could carry tens of thousands of pounds of ord AND could hit targets accurately without descending below 20K, I think the cries for perking it would be multitudinous.

Let's take one of the most popular jabos and bombers, the P-38L and Lancaster. At 14K one will be cruising at 350mph and can fight you on equal grounds, while the other is travelling at 270mph and can't even make evasive turns. But yeah, the jabo is absolutely easier to reach and kill  :noid
I have seen bombers making hard-to-believe "evasive turns" often, not losing drones and warping all over the place. The drone leash is buggy as hell. And yes, the P-38 jabo is absolutely easier to run down and kill. Laden with a max ord load, it is 40-60 mph slower than common LW rides, it has no rearward firing guns so a co-alt dead six chase is just fine, and it cannot defensively turn EFFECTIVELY without pickling its ord, which is mission busted right then and there. And that is not even getting into the fact that it has only enough ord to kill one hangar at a time, and must get quite low to deliver it accurately.

So a guy was a better at gunning than flying a fighter. It's almost like some players are better in some kind of planes....sorry, I'm a fan of conspiracy theories! :P
It's almost like with nearly no skill someone flying buffs in AH can be more dangerous than the fighters who historically had to protect even the best-defended bombers ever made from being slaughtered by other fighters. Last time I flew buffs I shot down two planes with a MOUSE before flying into a mountain because I was laughing so hard and not paying attention. It is literally an EZ mode point-and-click enterprise. Compare this to all that goes into being a decent shot and maneuvering pilot in fighters.

You mean bombing things? Some of us already do that from time to time. You call it tool-shedding, you mentioned it in a quite irate thread. So you want bombers to bluw stuff up or not? Make up your mind!  :uhoh
Yes, in a game which is drying up and dying because players cannot find fights, a fundamentally anti-fight dynamic like toolshedding (or downing HQ) is very bad, almost suicidal. Still, bombers should have targets. Large cityscapes in the back country of each side on the map would be realistic target for realistically (in)accurate level bombing. The destruction of them could have an effect on many strategic things, such as how fast destroyed ack guns and town buildings re-up, something of that nature. Or come up with your own idea. Whatever, buffs need something important to do that DOESN'T add to the lack of fights problem with current player numbers.


What nerf would you like to see? But I believe that by a realistic and fun team experience you mean being able to creep up a bomber's six and shoot it down without having to climb too much.
Many bombers were destroyed over Germany precisely by a 190 or 110 creeping up on their six and shooting them down. Realistically, a tailgunner, wielding a relatively inaccurate flex-mounted gun in a huge target is overmatched when it comes to a shootout with a small target heavily armed with fixed-forward firing guns. That said, I doubt a bomber with all gun positions manned by a player would be an easy kill in AH. That is precisely what I meant by a "team experience" and you know it.

As to changes to bring bombers more back into reason...Well first I'd look at the accuracy of flex mounted machine guns, which I think may be too high. The bombing accuracy thing has been discussed at length. I think a SINGLE player should control and fire one gun position in the formation at a time...the tail guns, or the ball turrets, or the top guns, etc. Additional players would mean additional guns firing simultaneously. Thus there would be some REASON to have gunners join your plane. Finally, I'd take a look at the drone leash bugs and what I call the "iron gunner" problem-Even a single ping in the canopy region in fighter combat often leads to a pilot-kill and POOF. We've all seen that. OTOH, I've seen many instances of shooting at a gunner position on a buff formation, landing many pings right where the human gunner would be, and it continues to fire.  

Yet you have no trouble with GVs, shore batteries, CV groups or PT boats. You can turn an entire CV group with a few mouse clips, when in reality those ships were manned by crews in the thousands. Is that realistic? No. It's called a compromise.

GVs an PT boats only come in multiples of one, and don't have the same strategic effect on the game that bomber formations do. Manned guns are by definition locked to the landscape of the base they are defending, so the comparison there doesn't really hold water. Your CV group comparison would be pretty damming, except for a few little details. Details like the fact that each side only gets a very limited number of them, and they have to creep about at 30 knots. If any and every player in the game could repeatedly up his own CV group from virtually any base, then that would make it a different story. But such is not the case.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 11:32:34 AM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Xavier

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 249
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #139 on: August 15, 2014, 12:37:48 PM »
Indeed, the combat box was designed for defense. So what stops bomber pilots from flying in formation with other bombers?
The basic unit of fighter combat is the wing pair. By the logic of that gives us buff formations, I should get an AI wingman. After all, who can go to the trouble of finding other pilots to fly with  :D

A single bomber is a free kill. Even a whole formation is easier to kill than a fighter (not only an opinion, I'm talking about the stats). As I said, formations are allowed for balancing purposes. Can't you understand it?

The k/d ratio of the toughest heavies is about .3 though.

And the k/d ratio of the 262 is way better than the average fighter. You're cherry-picking data.

I have seen bombers making hard-to-believe "evasive turns" often, not losing drones and warping all over the place. The drone leash is buggy as hell.

The player whose drones warp is the same player who warps in a fighter. It's a connection issue, not another concession made to bombers.

And yes, the P-38 jabo is absolutely easier to run down and kill.

If you're having more trouble shooting down a formation of Lancasters than downing a co-alt P-38L, you should think about changing your tactics.

It's almost like with nearly no skill someone flying buffs in AH can be more dangerous than the fighters who historically had to protect even the best-defended bombers ever made from being slaughtered by other fighters.

It seems like you don't want the facts to sink in. Bombers die more than fighters. It's easier to kill a whole formation than a single fighter. The stats show it, yet you come back to a single personal experience to back up your claims.

Yes, in a game which is drying up and dying because players cannot find fights, a fundamentally anti-fight dynamic like toolshedding (or downing HQ) is very bad, almost suicidal.

You don't realize that what you call tool-shedding is a fight. Someone just bombed your FH? Take off from the nearest base. That's what everybody does.

The destruction of them could have an effect on many strategic things, such as how fast destroyed ack guns and town buildings re-up, something of that nature.

You mean strats?

Whatever, buffs need something important to do that DOESN'T add to the lack of fights problem with current player numbers.

So you want bombers far away from the frontline and bombing things that can't directly affect the war. Not gonna happen.

That said, I doubt a bomber with all gun positions manned by a player would be an easy kill in AH. That is precisely what I meant by a "team experience" and you know it.

Your "team experience" would tie 4-10 players in a single plane that would still be an easy kill. The first fighter who saw a bomber would just HO it and get the 10 kills. Nobody would fly bombers anymore.

As to changes to bring bombers more back into reason...Well first I'd look at the accuracy of flex mounted machine guns, which I think may be too high. The bombing accuracy thing has been discussed at length.

It has, and you've been shown how bombers in the game have this accuracy because they're flying in ideal conditions. Just like fighters.

I think a SINGLE player should control and fire one gun position in the formation at a time...the tail guns, or the ball turrets, or the top guns, etc. Additional players would mean additional guns firing simultaneously. Thus there would be some REASON to have gunners join your plane.

That would effectively make bombers dead meat, and nobody would fly them anymore.

GVs an PT boats only come in multiples of one, and don't have the same strategic effect on the game that bomber formations do. Manned guns are by definition locked to the landscape of the base they are defending, so the comparison there doesn't really hold water. Your CV group comparison would be pretty damming, except for a few little details. Details like the fact that each side only gets a very limited number of them, and they have to creep about at 30 knots. If any and every player in the game could repeatedly up his own CV group from virtually any base, then that would make it a different story. But such is not the case.

You know we were talking about how a single player can do the job of several crewmen in real life. I wasn't talking about formations. You complain that a player should only be able to do the job of a single person in real life, yet you see nothing wrong with all other vehicles besides bombers.
Started from the bottom...still at the bottom.

Offline Xavier

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 249
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #140 on: August 15, 2014, 01:09:51 PM »
BnZs, I won't discuss this anymore. I'm going over the same points again and again. You're chosing to overlook the stats posted by other players, and I doubt you're doing it uncounsciously. I know you like to flame with certain topics, especially bombers. Since it's impossible to know when you're trying to have a genuine discussion or simply flaming, I choose to stay out of it. I saw enough in the Vic Formation thread.  ;)
Started from the bottom...still at the bottom.

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #141 on: August 15, 2014, 01:20:21 PM »
BnZs, I won't discuss this anymore. I'm going over the same points again and again. You're chosing to overlook the stats posted by other players, and I doubt you're doing it uncounsciously. I know you like to flame with certain topics, especially bombers. Since it's impossible to know when you're trying to have a genuine discussion or simply flaming, I choose to stay out of it. I saw enough in the Vic Formation thread.  ;)
Xavier, you are wrong in just about every point you are making, and you are the one that ignores the stats. You have also taken this thread way off course.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Xavier

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 249
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #142 on: August 15, 2014, 01:27:31 PM »
Xavier, you are wrong in just about every point you are making, and you are the one that ignores the stats. You have also taken this thread way off course.

Are you talking about Lusche's stats? Yes, I've taken this thread off course. I apologize for that!
Started from the bottom...still at the bottom.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #143 on: August 15, 2014, 03:27:36 PM »
A single bomber is a free kill. Even a whole formation is easier to kill than a fighter (not only an opinion, I'm talking about the stats). As I said, formations are allowed for balancing purposes. Can't you understand it?
And I've said multiple times that I'm NOT in favor of ending formations really, I just think formations are quite enough concessions to bombers. That said, what exactly makes it impossible for 2, 3, or more bomber pilots to wing up for mutual protection? You keep acting as if it is impossible in this game.

And the k/d ratio of the 262 is way better than the average fighter. You're cherry-picking data.
And the 262 is the most highly perked fighter in the game, while the B-17, to which the .3 figure refers, is unperked and ha.s an average ENY of 20. That is a point I forgot to mention in my previous post, I would lower the ENY of the "big 3" heavy bombers to 5. A country that is being hoarded doesn't need to be bombed into rubble by the best buffs anymore than it needs to be greatly outnumbered by opponents in La7s and SpitXVIs. Yet that is exactly what current ENY values allow. Also, the player who faces the defensive firepower of a Flying Fortress and shoots it down for his country deserves at least as many perk points as the guy who kills a nearly helpless jabo Pony.

The player whose drones warp is the same player who warps in a fighter. It's a connection issue, not another concession made to bombers.
This is a known bug that happens when both players have a clean connection and the bombers are maneuvering. It is not a deliberate concession but it amounts to another gamey advantage for bombers and another thing that makes interception not really worth it.

If you're having more trouble shooting down a formation of Lancasters than downing a co-alt P-38L, you should think about changing your tactics.
A P-38 laden with 2000 pounds of bombs is helpless to maneuver effectively, and you can just run it down in a co-alt chase, hang onto its six, and kill it, or force it to jettison ords which is mission bust. A Lancaster will severely damage you if you try the same thing. Also a single lanc or other other heavy buff is much, much resistant to damage than any fighter, let alone 3 of them. So you have to build more of an energy advantage, shoot better, and run more of a gauntlet of firepower to stop a unit that is capable of dropping 3 hangars on a base than you do to stop a unit that can drop one at most.

It seems like you don't want the facts to sink in. Bombers die more than fighters. It's easier to kill a whole formation than a single fighter. The stats show it, yet you come back to a single personal experience to back up your claims.
Actually the stats show the B-17 formation having a k/d about 1, which is a lot better than many fighters. And my personal experience is entirely valid. You can often fly right up behind someone in fighters, shoot them down with a small number of rounds, and they have really no chance to do anything about it, certainly not fire backwards at you. Bombers often being more dangerous than the fighters that historically protected them is a fact. Fighters in this game diving to bomber *for* protection (a thing which has happened in the MA and FSO both) is a fact which should make everyone stop and think.


So you want bombers far away from the frontline and bombing things that can't directly affect the war. Not gonna happen.
By "effect the war" you mean stop fights, pouring more water on the already dying fire that is Aces High. Bombers could have approximately the same effect they actually did have on the war, making the enemy unable to replenish certain things, without stopping fighting entirely. And the way I envision setting it up would lead to classic 8th Air Force vs. Luftwaffe fights at high altitude, something the MA could use.

Your "team experience" would tie 4-10 players in a single plane that would still be an easy kill. The first fighter who saw a bomber would just HO it and get the 10 kills. Nobody would fly bombers anymore.
Actually it would tie 4-10 players up in a 3 ship formation, as I've said over and over, and 4-10 players SHOULD be tied up in something like that if it is going to be modeled to be as effective as 3 airplanes that took 30 crew.
 :rofl OH boy, really, you think you'd get ten kills? Perhaps you haven't noticed, but in this game shooting down one plane=1 kill, whether he has a gunner or not.

It has, and you've been shown how bombers in the game have this accuracy because they're flying in ideal conditions. Just like fighters.
It has been shown that bombers in this game can snipe vehicles from 15k, a feat that was not duplicated by real world test even under the most ideal condition. It was further shown that level bombers were almost useless for attacking things as large as ships, which is why dive bombing was used in the first place.


"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline kvuo75

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3003
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #144 on: August 17, 2014, 01:20:10 PM »
again, bombers are mostly harmless if attacked properly.
kvuo75

Kill the manned ack.

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #145 on: August 17, 2014, 03:09:04 PM »
again, bombers are mostly harmless if attacked properly.

So are fighters.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23872
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #146 on: August 17, 2014, 03:30:23 PM »
So are fighters.


No, not at all. Huge difference between those two cases.

As someone said earlier, you can go from "certain death" to "almost invulnerable" when attacking bombers just by choosing your approach... which doesn't require much skill at this point at all. It's a simple decision to spend another minute to set up the approach.
The overwhelming majority of all fighters I see attacking buffs in the MA (or attacked my buffs) are choosing the 6 o'clock approach. Even massively fast rides like the 262 or Me 163.

It's totally different with fighter because of the entirely different, much more dynamic combat. Fighters are maneuvering to gain angles on each other, bombers only very rarely.



When I fly a bomber on a strat run or so, and I see someone coming up to me, an then starting to get into a proper position, I know I'm screwed. Luckily, the majority used to chase me down for 10+ minutes just to ride down my tail gun barrels.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 03:37:50 PM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #147 on: August 18, 2014, 06:35:40 AM »
choosing your approach...
Sometimes it feels more like is being chosen for you. For instance, when attacking NOE B-26s.


which doesn't require much skill at this point at all.

I debate this point, as does Bozon. We're all experienced pilots here, so I trust no one will play the "...because you SUCK!" card.

Besides, the comparison being made over and over was not between bombers and clean fighters, but bombers and jabos. A fighter with more than 2K worth of ord weighing it down is much more helpless than a bomber until it drops the stuff at least, which means no bombing on that run. A formation can effectively defend itself and still deliver a huge bombload onto target.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Xavier

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 249
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #148 on: August 18, 2014, 07:00:08 AM »
Sometimes it feels more like is being chosen for you. For instance, when attacking NOE B-26s.

Which attack approach do you use when bombers are flying NOE? And what about higher alts? I'm genuinely curious.
Started from the bottom...still at the bottom.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #149 on: August 18, 2014, 08:46:17 AM »
Which attack approach do you use when bombers are flying NOE? And what about higher alts? I'm genuinely curious.

The only approaches even moderately safe from defensive gunnery seem to be either as straight down as practical, or head-on. And head-on has to be disfavored because of short firing times and the large amount of separation created after the firing pass, thus greatly extending the time to destroy a buff unless one has the speed and armament of a 262. And many bomber pilots are very Johnny-on-the-spot about honking a hard turn and making a head on approach into a very dangerous beam or rear approach for the interceptor.

The vertical approach is obviously limited by terra firma when the formation is very low and it can be very difficult to keep repeated from drifting more to the dangerous rear quarter when the bombers are fast.

All of this adds up to a situation where IMO, yes it may be very easy for some to eventually down a formation with a fast, multi-cannon bird and patience, but I maintain it is often impractically difficult to destroy a formation *before it gets its bombs on the target*, which is the whole point of attacking buffs for non-scorepadders.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."