need advise on 7.1 sound card

[MrRiplEy[H]]

OpenAL is the underlying sound system in Windows and has been since Vista.  All Windows sound functions use it. 

I do not know what you mean by "even without software support" as every sound card driver uses the Windows API for driver support which routes through OpenAL.  In Windows, OpenAL does not have to do much but be the traffic manager between the hardware and the operating system.

I have no idea what context you are speaking from when you say, OpenAL is very limited.  It does what it is supposed to do.  Beyond that, you need to clarify the comment.

According to Wikipedia OpenAL is an API which is not native to Windows in any way. You need Creative Alchemy or similar code to utilize it.

Windows Vista features a completely re-written audio stack based on the Universal Audio Architecture. Because of the architectural changes in the redesigned audio stack, a direct path from DirectSound to the audio drivers does not exist.[7] DirectSound, DirectMusic and other APIs such as MME are emulated as WASAPI Session instances. DirectSound runs in emulation mode on the Microsoft software mixer. The emulator does not have hardware abstraction, so there is no hardware DirectSound acceleration, meaning hardware and software relying on DirectSound acceleration may have degraded performance. It's likely a supposed performance hit might not be noticeable, depending on the application and actual system hardware. In the case of hardware 3D audio effects played using DirectSound3D, they will not be playable; this also breaks compatibility with EAX extensions.[8]

Third-party APIs such as ASIO and OpenAL are not affected by these architectural changes in Windows Vista, as they use IOCtl to interface directly with the audio driver . A solution for applications that wish to take advantage of hardware accelerated high-quality 3D positional audio is to use OpenAL. However, this only works if the manufacturer provides an OpenAL driver for their hardware.[9]

As of 2007, a solution to re-enable hardware acceleration of DirectSound3D and Audio Effects, such as EAX, called Creative ALchemy was launched.[10] Creative ALchemy intercepts calls to DirectSound3D and translates them into OpenAL calls to be processed by supported hardware such as Sound Blaster X-Fi and Sound Blaster Audigy. For software-based Creative audio solutions, ALchemy utilizes its built-in 3D audio engine without using OpenAL at all.

Realtek, a manufacturer of integrated HD audio codecs, has a product similar to ALchemy called 3D SoundBack. C-Media, a manufacturer of PC sound card chipsets, also has a solution called Xear3D EX, although it works instead by intercepting DirectSound3D calls transparently in the background without any user intervention.

[2bighorn]

The onboard solution uses the same creative chip and processes sound using the same methods, yet you think it's not as good. Aces High doesn't have OpenAL support as far as I know (and it doesn't require the installation of OpenAL driver) so your sound cards work in software mode and taxes the CPU despite its architecture.

It's 2014. If you haven't figured out yet, in the age of high performance multi-core CPUs, nobody is getting discrete soundcard to increase performance of processing because differences are negligible.
Beside that, you don't know what ALchemy does. Game doesn't need to support OpenAL, those who do have direct access to soundcard hardware, those who do not need to use ALchemy wraper. True, ALchemy needs to support the game, but that is still other way around than what you think it is.

Stop googling without actually reading and understanding.

It's really all about sound quality and onboard DACs, ADCs and AMPs are too constrained to achieve the same quality as those on discrete soundcards do. That's the fact.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

It's 2014. If you haven't figured out yet, in the age of high performance multi-core CPUs, nobody is getting discrete soundcard to increase performance of processing because differences are negligible.
Beside that, you don't know what ALchemy does. Game doesn't need to support OpenAL, those who do have direct access to soundcard hardware, those who do not need to use ALchemy wraper. True, ALchemy needs to support the game, but that is still other way around than what you think it is.

Stop googling without actually reading and understanding.

It's really all about sound quality and onboard DACs, ADCs and AMPs are too constrained to achieve the same quality as those on discrete soundcards do. That's the fact.

Even when the op amps, dacs and adcs used are the same as in the discrete card such as is the case in the Gigabyte sample. This is not based on facts anymore at this point.

Also according to http://support.creative.com/kb/showarticle.aspx?sid=28967 Aces High is not on the list of OpenAL supported games. This in my understanding indicates that AH runs in software mode audio wise unless a C-media driver is used that is totally transparent.

[Skuzzy]

According to Wikipedia OpenAL is an API which is not native to Windows in any way. You need Creative Alchemy or similar code to utilize it.

I can see where what I said would be confusing.  I did not go into detail as I do not have the bandwidth, at the moment, to do so.

Even when the op amps, dacs and adcs used are the same as in the discrete card such as is the case in the Gigabyte sample. This is not based on facts anymore at this point.

Actually, it is not just the components in a digital sound system, it is the layout (number of board layers, ground planes...) and shielding as well.  I am not saying there is no difference in the sound.  I do not have data to indicate one way or the other. 

My contention is, and has been, a sound card can afford higher efficiencies due to being able to run at full speed in parallel to the system CPU and allowing the system CPU to be free from interruption.

[2bighorn]

In this case you would have to compare a discrete card using Creatives SoundCore3D chip to a motherboard implementation of the same chip (yes they exist).

Do you actually know what for SoundCore3D is used onboard or on card like Z series? Thought so.

For music reproduction you don't nor you should use any processing SoundCore3D does, like SBX or CV.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Do you actually know what for SoundCore3D is used onboard or on card like Z series? Thought so.

For music reproduction you don't nor you should use any processing SoundCore3D does, like SBX or CV.

Soundcore3D is a DSP processor, did you think so?

So what about the DACS ADCS and op-amps that are similar in the gigabyte implementation? Forgot those already? The DAC and the op-amp pretty much handle most of the 2 channel audio.

[2bighorn]

Even when the op amps, dacs and adcs used are the same as in the discrete card such as is the case in the Gigabyte sample.

They aren't. Far from it.

This is not based on facts anymore at this point.

It very much is, and very easy to compare.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

They aren't. Far from it.

It very much is, and very easy to compare.

Ok, compare. What exactly stops Gigabyte from doing an onboard solution that is comparative or higher in component quality? The cost is the only limiting factor and this is a fact.

[2bighorn]

Soundcore3D is a DSP processor, did you think so?

Why would you want to do anything to your high quality audio source other than convert it to analog signal?

[2bighorn]

Ok, compare. What exactly stops Gigabyte from doing an onboard solution that is comparative or higher in component quality? The cost is the only limiting factor and this is a fact.

Nothing prevents them, it's just so they're not doing it. The onboard solution you linked in second page is far cry from quality of high-end discrete cards. The only common thing they have is DSP chip. For everything else, there's huge gap.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Why would you want to do anything to your high quality audio source other than convert it to analog signal?

We're talking about computer audio reproduction and 3D positional sound, not just 2 chan. The Gigabyte board uses  TI Burr Brown OPA2134 op-amps. Are they bad in your opinion?

Don't change subjects now. is it or is it not possible for Gigabyte to implement similar or better quality components in the motherboard audio? Remember that the stance of the opposition is that it CANT be done. It's not only if it has been done or not.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Nothing prevents them, it's just so they're not doing it. The onboard solution you linked in second page is far cry from quality of high-end discrete cards. The only common thing they have is DSP chip. For everything else, there's huge gap.

Which DAC the Gigabyte board uses? I couldn't find any references online. You seem to know.

Edit: found it. They're integrated in the chip so it's 100% identical to the discrete card. 

In addition to integrated DAC and ADC components, the Core3D has its own headphone amplifier, a digital microphone interface, and S/PDIF connectivity.

[Skuzzy]

We're talking about computer audio reproduction and 3D positional sound, not just 2 chan. The Gigabyte board uses  TI Burr Brown OPA2134 op-amps. Are they bad in your opinion?

Don't change subjects now. is it or is it not possible for Gigabyte to implement similar or better quality components in the motherboard audio? Remember that the stance of the opposition is that it CANT be done. It's not only if it has been done or not.

So we are talking pie-in-the-sky.  Anyone can do anything, given enough time and money and effort, but no one is going to do it, so what is the point?  Just asking.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

So we are talking pie-in-the-sky.  Anyone can do anything, given enough time and money and effort, but no one is going to do it, so what is the point?  Just asking.

The point is that as I just discovered, the Creative chip is an all-in-one solution with DSP, DAC and ADC and the board uses a short signal path and a known good Burr-Brown op-amp, high quality Japanese Nichicon audio capacitors in an isolated section on the board and a discrete filtered power supply.

In addition to this, Aces High among many other games is not on the supported Alchemy games list, indicating that it probably runs in software, not hardware accelerated mode.

So technically, what makes it so bad? Prejudice.

Call me crazy but to me that looks like as far as technology and components go, the board does not get ashamed at all by a discrete Creative card (especially one that uses also a Core3D chip).

[Skuzzy]

I do not believe I ever said it was bad.

It is just not as efficient as an add on card and I have already explained why.