War Thunder

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Just watch the first minute of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDW2X2cgLno

I promise, regardless of what game you are loyal to, you will be impressed by the effects.

Effects are great. Playability in all IL2 series is horrible. Hated every time I tried it. Scripted crap is scripted crap. And MMOG it is not. Anyone who looks for AH type action is going to be sorely disappointed in both WT and IL2.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

IL-2: Battle of Stalingrad is a new game, still in production. It's not made by the same people that did the earlier Il-2/FB/1946 series. It's made by the guys who did Rise of Flight. Even so, the earlier Il2 games were excellent, despite their issues.

I can last 5 minutes of previous IL2 series before I rage quit. Scripted action, scripted radio messaging, captioning etc. just break my nerves. And the online part is like going to play the old AH h2h only with clumsier lobby system.

[Ratsy]

The videos are terrific, Tunnelrat.  They are well thought out and well crafted.

I have a soft spot for IL2 since it was a cap stone for 20-years of digital flight combat innovation from many studios.  Heck, now that I have a decent GPU, Cliffs of Dover is a lot more interesting.

I think the point of this thread is more about addressing whys and wherefores of War Thunder, since War Thunder is generally believed to be the destination for players lost to Aces High.  War Thunder comes off as the Boogie Man for a number of people.  If we are honest however, the air war simulator public is historically a fickle bunch.  We are known for jumping from one shiny distraction to the next over time.  That's a good thing, though, because it helps create and sustain a market and provides an incentive and laboratory for developers to continuously innovate.

The Aces High community is trimming down to a core of people who are basically loyal to HTC and respect the company for its long run in a volatile business space.  Ultimately, HTC will meet the challenge of innovation and, in my opinion, address the changing player demographic.  That might not please all of us.  That's just the way of things.  But Aces High has my trust.  They've earned that by keeping their overheads low and the productivity of their small workforce high.

Thanks again for sharing the videos.

 

 



 

[MrRiplEy[H]]

The videos are terrific, Tunnelrat.  They are well thought out and well crafted.

I have a soft spot for IL2 since it was a cap stone for 20-years of digital flight combat innovation from many studios.  Heck, now that I have a decent GPU, Cliffs of Dover is a lot more interesting.

I think the point of this thread is more about addressing whys and wherefores of War Thunder, since War Thunder is generally believed to be the destination for players lost to Aces High.  War Thunder comes off as the Boogie Man for a number of people.  If we are honest however, the air war simulator public is historically a fickle bunch.  We are known for jumping from one shiny distraction to the next over time.  That's a good thing, though, because it helps create and sustain a market and provides an incentive and laboratory for developers to continuously innovate.

The Aces High community is trimming down to a core of people who are basically loyal to HTC and respect the company for its long run in a volatile business space.  Ultimately, HTC will meet the challenge of innovation and, in my opinion, address the changing player demographic.  That might not please all of us.  That's just the way of things.  But Aces High has my trust.  They've earned that by keeping their overheads low and the productivity of their small workforce high.

Thanks again for sharing the videos.

 

 



 

I have a really hard time believing AH would lose existing customers to WT. It looks fancy but the 20 minute lobby wait alone for full realism battle makes it a serious no go. What WT does however is steal new customers who see only the fancy graphics and never learn about the quality of gameplay AH has.

[Ratsy]

Mr Ripley.  I agree with you.

Free to play is the ultimate lie.  That's been expressed in this thread.  Marketing of this color flirts with dishonesty and hucksterism, but history tells us that it has been ever thus.  War Thunder is just the latest and most visible example from our perspective as combat sim enthusiasts.

You are correct about War Thunder's target demographic.  The new player.  They not only anticipate a high turnover in customer base...they count on it.  I read somewhere most companies have abandoned marketing brand loyalty and trust to the existing customer base.  Keeping an existing customer is expensive in terms of overheads.  Getting a new one is cheaper overall so a lot of companies just glitz up their advertising to the very edge of being 'false'.  That is friendlier to the annual balance sheet.

Gaijin doesn't care about turnover.  They understand Angry Birds, Clash of Clans, Candy Crush and the millions that play those (seemingly mindless) games.  While those titles might be an affront to some intellects - if they can get a couple of million people to pay $10 a year out of impatience for gimmicks, then they're still doing pretty well.

 



 

[Saxman]

The videos are terrific, Tunnelrat.  They are well thought out and well crafted.

I have a soft spot for IL2 since it was a cap stone for 20-years of digital flight combat innovation from many studios.  Heck, now that I have a decent GPU, Cliffs of Dover is a lot more interesting.

Not even 15 years yet, dude. Il-2 was 2001.

And it's kind of easy to be the "cap stone" when you're more or less the only one out there. Aside from a brief blip in the late-90s when European Air War (whose campaign was by FAR superior to Il-2's. In fact it may have had the best campaign mode since Aces of the Pacific), Jane's WWII Fighters (in its disappointingly arcadey glory) and Microsoft's CFS series were all coming out, WWII sims have been few and far between.

[pembquist]

The best way to play AH would be with a simpit that had full range of motion force feedback controls, some distillation of realistic engine controls, a flap handle and a spherical rear projection dome. The best way to play War Thunder is in third person mode with a mouse. They aren't really competitors in a strict sense they just happen to have a similar starting point,(ww2 aviation.)

[GScholz]

I can last 5 minutes of previous IL2 series before I rage quit. Scripted action, scripted radio messaging, captioning etc. just break my nerves. And the online part is like going to play the old AH h2h only with clumsier lobby system.

You seem like a very unbalanced person.

There are several excellent third party campaigns available for Il-2. Case Blue and Case Yellow were excellent scripted campaigns, and then there's the very excellent DCG dynamic campaign generator.

[FLOOB]

I can last 5 minutes of previous IL2 series before I rage quit. Scripted action, scripted radio messaging, captioning etc. just break my nerves. And the online part is like going to play the old AH h2h only with clumsier lobby system.

I've had CLoD for a year now, according to steam I've only played it 3 hours. Even if I didn't want to play Aces High at that moment, after playing clod for 5 minutes I would have the urge to close IL2 and log in to AH. Kind of like the effect of watching a dogfight movie has on me.

[Ratsy]

Not even 15 years yet, dude. Il-2 was 2001.

My reference goes back to the subLOGIC studio and the wire frame WWI combat software that accompanied "Flight Simulator".  There might not be anybody here that remembers that.  I played it on a Compaq Portable Computer (32-pounds worth of 'luggable').  That was around 1981 or 82, I think.

From Wikipedia:
Microsoft Flight Simulator began as a set of articles on computer graphics, written by Bruce Artwick throughout 1976, about flight simulation using 3-D graphics. When the editor of the magazine told Artwick that subscribers were interested in purchasing such a program, Artwick founded subLOGIC Corporation to commercialize his ideas. 


I agree that it doesn't seem like so many years have passed.

 

[Saxman]

Yes, I do remember that.

At any rate, I'd much rather play Aces of the Pacific, 1942: Pacific Air War, or European Air War than Il-2.

Don't care if they're visually and even technically dated. AotP's features are STILL among the best of any sim I've played (five branches of service to fly; full scope of American involvement from Wake Island through the end of the war, and that's not even getting into the WWII: 1946 expansion; campaign, single-mission, historical mission, and ace duel modes; earning decorations for actions in combat). The strategy mode of PAW Gold was a LOT of fun, which really helped make up to an extent for the limited campaign (which was comprised entirely of missions you could also fly singly). And then EAW and its dynamic campaign (bonus for the PTO Total Conversion).

[Ratsy]

Yup.  I played all of those titles and enjoyed them completely.  However...I looked with longing at AW and WB during those years.  I simply couldn't afford them while I was restoring a basket case in the garage.  I always wondered what it would be like to fight another human in a game while using tactics developed in the real engagements during the real conflict.

To cut to the chase, that didn't happen for me until Aces High.

I like IL2.  I was disappointed with COD because my hardware expectations were not properly set beforehand.  Three years on and I've just gotten a GPU that would run it and I still have the feeling that it was never properly finished.

But...we are talking about War Thunder in this thread.  They have a huge customer base.  We need a larger customer base to bring the quality of play back to the AH arenas.  HTC needs new customers.  HTC has some tough choices to make with regard to their business approach.  Change can be good or bad, but regardless change is inevitable.  Like Christmas or death and taxes, a lot will depend on your personal perspective.  So I guess I'm done talking about War Thunder.  I wish them well, but I will not be a paying customer.  Ever.

 

[tunnelrat]

Much as I hate to say it, I think the only way to draw big(ger) numbers to AH is going to be as follows:

1.  Come out with a MouseJoy option that makes it playable for people who not only don't have joysticks, but wouldn't know what to do with them if they did. (Not Arcade WT, but "Realistic" <--- I use the term loosely)

Basically this means taking combat trim to the next level for mouse users... Honestly, with how Aces models gun dispersion, I think this could be MORE successful an implementation than WT (In WT, MouseJoy lets you throw 37mm rounds like laser beams).  People WILL squeak, however, when the 5-10% of skilled players using mice start beating them.   That's inevitable.


2.  Come out with some sort of F2P option for AH.  Limited Plane Set?  Other limits?  I dunno.  But having tons of planes in the air flying for free is going to draw the people who will pay, if it's done right.

You aren't going to skim off the tiny sim groups in games like IL2 (CLoD or BoS), WT Sim-mode players, etc, simply because they aren't going to get past the graphics/interface to give Aces High a chance... Even if you could perfectly showcase the beauty of the big arena, or how kickass FSO is, the pond of players equipped to jump right in and fly a game like Aces just isn't that deep anymore.

Bottom line is, in order for Aces to grow again, things are going to have to change... and when your current apple cart's contents are 80% fragile snowflakes that melt-down over minor things... well, I don't envy the team that has to sit down around that table and make those decisions hahaha

[Tinkles]

Much as I hate to say it, I think the only way to draw big(ger) numbers to AH is going to be as follows:

1.  Come out with a MouseJoy option that makes it playable for people who not only don't have joysticks, but wouldn't know what to do with them if they did. (Not Arcade WT, but "Realistic" <--- I use the term loosely)

Basically this means taking combat trim to the next level for mouse users... Honestly, with how Aces models gun dispersion, I think this could be MORE successful an implementation than WT (In WT, MouseJoy lets you throw 37mm rounds like laser beams).  People WILL squeak, however, when the 5-10% of skilled players using mice start beating them.   That's inevitable.


2.  Come out with some sort of F2P option for AH.  Limited Plane Set?  Other limits?  I dunno.  But having tons of planes in the air flying for free is going to draw the people who will pay, if it's done right.

You aren't going to skim off the tiny sim groups in games like IL2 (CLoD or BoS), WT Sim-mode players, etc, simply because they aren't going to get past the graphics/interface to give Aces High a chance... Even if you could perfectly showcase the beauty of the big arena, or how kickass FSO is, the pond of players equipped to jump right in and fly a game like Aces just isn't that deep anymore.

Bottom line is, in order for Aces to grow again, things are going to have to change... and when your current apple cart's contents are 80% fragile snowflakes that melt-down over minor things... well, I don't envy the team that has to sit down around that table and make those decisions hahaha

#1 I think it is flyable for those with mouses, flyman uses a mouse and is very good with it. 
#2 I agree, I think if there is a Free-to-Play option, that only 40 ENY (maybe some 35 eny) planes should be allowed. With some of the 30ENY being perked for the FTP'ers to use their perks on. Same system for bombers and GVs too.

[Wiley]

Much as I hate to say it, I think the only way to draw big(ger) numbers to AH is going to be as follows:

1.  Come out with a MouseJoy option that makes it playable for people who not only don't have joysticks, but wouldn't know what to do with them if they did. (Not Arcade WT, but "Realistic" <--- I use the term loosely)

Basically this means taking combat trim to the next level for mouse users... Honestly, with how Aces models gun dispersion, I think this could be MORE successful an implementation than WT (In WT, MouseJoy lets you throw 37mm rounds like laser beams).  People WILL squeak, however, when the 5-10% of skilled players using mice start beating them.   That's inevitable.

Basically you're saying give the mouse players the ability to point the mouse where they want the nose of the plane to go, and the software figures out how to put the plane there with the controls if it's possible?  Must say I think that's a terrible idea.  Great if that's the only way to play, but in a game where controlling your aircraft is 3/4 of the gameplay, taking that out and making people instantly perfect at maneuvering wouldn't be good.  I think you're underestimating the 5-10% number on people that would be able to use that to whup on people without that advantage.

2.  Come out with some sort of F2P option for AH.  Limited Plane Set?  Other limits?  I dunno.  But having tons of planes in the air flying for free is going to draw the people who will pay, if it's done right.

You aren't going to skim off the tiny sim groups in games like IL2 (CLoD or BoS), WT Sim-mode players, etc, simply because they aren't going to get past the graphics/interface to give Aces High a chance... Even if you could perfectly showcase the beauty of the big arena, or how kickass FSO is, the pond of players equipped to jump right in and fly a game like Aces just isn't that deep anymore.

Bottom line is, in order for Aces to grow again, things are going to have to change... and when your current apple cart's contents are 80% fragile snowflakes that melt-down over minor things... well, I don't envy the team that has to sit down around that table and make those decisions hahaha

I could live with some kind of F2P people running around although I'd question how much gameplay they would add flying fighter hordes in their 40 ENY birds.

Wiley.