The Loaded Roll: My favorite defense trick in the book

[Kingpin]

Thanks a lot for the comments.

You're welcome for the comments, as I think there are some good points to be made on this topic.

The first is the difference between BFM (Basic Flight Maneuvers) vs. ACM (Air Combat Maneuvering).
 

Yeah I always just assumed it was a single ACM.

Here is where I think the confusion is coming from.  There isn't really a "single ACM".  ACM (Air Combat Maneuvering) is applying basic maneuvers to a combat situation in order to defeat an opponent.  

Saying your film shows a loaded roll is saying it is one maneuver.  What is it really showing is ACM, a series of maneuvers used to convert a defensive position into an offensive one.  In this case, a form of the Barrel Roll Defense, which is not a maneuver but is ACM.  

The reason I don't think it is directly a BRD is because a BRD would happen if both of you were in a scissors at close range and you got into the position of being able to cut engine and do a right BR over the the top to squeeze inside of them.

The BRD is defensive ACM, so not something you'd do in a close scissors.  A scissors generally implies closer E-states, so if you were barrel rolling while in a close scissors, it would be a rolling scissors (still using a barrel roll, but not the BRD).

Or if f they are going extremely fast and you had to do a quick roll as they speed past you for an over shoot.  So yes you'd still have to enter a slight verticle angle but not extreme and its more of a quick roll rather than a loop to roll technique.

This is kind of my point, it's still a BRD despite the size of the barrel roll used.  Yes, you can just do a tighter one against planes that can't turn to pull lead on you in a tighter roll (generally someone coming in much faster than you) but it's a BRD despite how you set it up and how tight you roll to execute the reversal.

I think what you are calling a "half loop" is actually the first half of a large barrel roll.  It feels like loop because there is a lot of vertical, but you have a roll component in during nearly all of the maneuver and actually "roll around" the Yak's flight path.  That's the BRD.  Part of what makes it feel like you "loop" back into him is his pulling up back into you.

Again, I'm not trying to pick apart your film, as it is an excellent display of ACM.  My point is to distinguish between a single maneuver (like a loaded roll or barrel roll) and the overall ACM application of the BRD, because I think this discussion might be helpful to others.

<S>
Ryno

[Kingpin]

when a statement is made that "when you see this, do this loaded barrel roll" to defeat it (AS AN EXAMPLE FOR DISCUSSION) without any discussion about lift vector and how it should be applied, it suggests a lack of basic BFM fundamentals.  It's not possible to say, when you see a guy do this, pull a double ratsinfrats out of your bag of tricks and you'll defeat him.  Dogfighting is a very fluid situation and requires constant adjustments to counter the opponent.

I couldn't agree more!  I've always found it interesting how simple air combat can seem when you just think in terms of lift vector and lead angle (why doesn't it always seem that simple when I'm flying though!?)

One reason I was trying to emphasize the difference between a "maneuver" and ACM here is because I agree with you that some players fall into the oversimplification trap of "do this move", instead of thinking about all the variables in a "IF this, THEN do THIS, in THAT way" approach.  The "just do this move" explanation is like teaching someone to play chess without them looking at the opponent's side of the board.  Or like running an offense without looking at what the defense is running.  

I use those two analogies a lot, depending on if I'm talking to a chess player or sports player.  To extend the analogy: BFM is like learning how chess pieces move or how to run with a football.  ACM is like learning chess openings or how to run the read-option offense.

<S>
Ryno

[Puma44]

Yep, .......crawl, walk, run! 

[DmonSlyr]

Why is that?

So really in truly, I am most likely not correct with my terminology, as I have never actually "studied" flight combat in actuality. That being said,  I wasn't sure of the difference in context you were talking about, but I do know what I am flying about 

I thank you guys for presenting this in a direction for me to understand the difference in terminology without belittling my understanding of each concept. I presumably was not sure of the direct difference, and here is why...
 
To answer your question as well Puma,

This move is not a "you should do this every time just like this type trick". But, I think you should hahaha. If you would like, I can post another film of a fight I had against a spit vs my g14 where he had more E than me and started the fight on my 6. then I made him kill his E. The video will demonstrate how effective this maneuver works throughout a fight vs a plane that has the advantage in its entirety. 

The reason why you should be in nose down turn, is because it works best when the pilot is blacking out or attempting to get a lead shot on you. The whole idea is to a get out of their sights but also let them "think" they can get a shot on you. The nose down turn is the least risky way to set yourself up to perform a counter attack against an unsuspecting player. This moves gives you a chance to land a couple of shots, rather than just getting away from the attacker. It would very difficult to make this maneuver work without first setting your opponent up with a nose down turn.

This is why I was unaware that a BRD was an ACM rather than just a Maneuver. When a Loaded Roll would just be a maneuver rather than a steady stream ACM all in one attack.

Thank you,

  Violator

This move, if you want to be effective against defending faster planes, is one I would highly recommend learning.

[glzsqd]

Great discussion guys!

This puts a lot of things into perspective for a guy like me who isn't to knowledgeable of such things.

[The Fugitive]

Now, figuring more than 90% of the players we have don't understand nor can they recognize these types of maneuvers.... making it a good move to learn, can you imagine what this game would be like if you could convince half of those that there is more than "pointing your nose at the other guy"?

The fights would be.........











what for it......................














EPIC!   

[FLS]

One point about semantics is that the USAF and USN use some terms differently. What the USAF manual calls BFM the USN manual refers to as ACM and allows BFM as an alternate term for basic ACM.

[Kingpin]

So really in truly, I am most likely not correct with my terminology, as I have never actually "studied" flight combat in actuality.

This move is not a "you should do this every time just like this type trick". But, I think you should hahaha.

This is why I was unaware that a BRD was an ACM rather than just a Maneuver. When a Loaded Roll would just be a maneuver rather than a steady stream ACM all in one attack.

I'm glad you see my point about a maneuver vs. ACM, because that's also what I'm trying to point out -- not just the semantics, but also that ACM is recognizing the dynamics of the fight and knowing the correct maneuver in a given situation.  No one move is a "cure all".

I agree the Barrel Roll Defense is something everyone should know, but it isn't something that is always going to work, in the sense of creating an overshoot and a reversal that results in a firing solution.  In the analysis of your film, you have to recognize that the Yak made mistakes which allowed you to get the shot.  You make an excellent move to set him up for that, but an important dynamic to acknowledge is what the opponent did or didn't do.

For example, what if the attacker recognized what you are doing when you break turn into him (increasing closure rate, forcing an overshoot and defeating a shot lead angle) and he doesn't go for the shot and instead goes up, using a lag roll (lag displacement roll or high yo-yo) which keeps him behind your 3/9 line?  Then the following vertical component of your maneuver may not work.  In fact, he could wind up with a shot on you as you climb in front of him.  

If he then continues to keep the pressure on while remaining behind your 3/9 line, and you continue to break turn (rinse and repeat), eventually you run out of E (either insufficient speed to go vertical or altitude left to break low).  The BRD is effective at defeating a guns pass by a higher speed AC, but it does rely on some level of over-aggressiveness by the attacker in order to yield a reversal and shot.  

That's really my point about BFM vs. ACM.  With ACM you have to take in account all the variables: energy states, AC performance characteristics and most importantly what the opponent is doing.  If your opponent doesn't play right into your hand, then a certain "move" may not get the result you want.  You also have to recognize when a move will work and when it won't work -- in my opinion, THAT'S ACM in a nutshell, applying the correct move for the given situation.

Again, your film is an excellent example of how to reverse an overly aggressive opponent attacking you with speed advantage, but I think both the reversal maneuvers made and the mistakes of the opponent need to be acknowledged to recognize why it worked, in order for this to be a good learning tool.

<S>
Ryno

[Skyyr]

Imagine what the fights would be like

...

EPIC!  

Yes. In fact, a recent fight comes to mind where I was jumped by two higher, faster mustangs 1v2, in an angles fight no less against my 190. I won, but the fight might've ended differently had the pilots known some basic maneuvers. The general population could definitely use some ACM education.

[DmonSlyr]

I'm glad you see my point about a maneuver vs. ACM, because that's also what I'm trying to point out -- not just the semantics, but also that ACM is recognizing the dynamics of the fight and knowing the correct maneuver in a given situation.  No one move is a "cure all".

I agree the Barrel Roll Defense is something everyone should know, but it isn't something that is always going to work, in the sense of creating an overshoot and a reversal that results in a firing solution.  In the analysis of your film, you have to recognize that the Yak made mistakes which allowed you to get the shot.  You make an excellent move to set him up for that, but an important dynamic to acknowledge is what the opponent did or didn't do.

For example, what if the attacker recognized what you are doing when you break turn into him (increasing closure rate, forcing an overshoot and defeating a shot lead angle) and he doesn't go for the shot and instead goes up, using a lag roll (lag displacement roll or high yo-yo) which keeps him behind your 3/9 line?  Then the following vertical component of your maneuver may not work.  In fact, he could wind up with a shot on you as you climb in front of him.  

If he then continues to keep the pressure on while remaining behind your 3/9 line, and you continue to break turn (rinse and repeat), eventually you run out of E (either insufficient speed to go vertical or altitude left to break low).  The BRD is effective at defeating a guns pass by a higher speed AC, but it does rely on some level of over-aggressiveness by the attacker in order to yield a reversal and shot.  

That's really my point about BFM vs. ACM.  With ACM you have to take in account all the variables: energy states, AC performance characteristics and most importantly what the opponent is doing.  If your opponent doesn't play right into your hand, then a certain "move" may not get the result you want.  You also have to recognize when a move will work and when it won't work -- in my opinion, THAT'S ACM in a nutshell, applying the correct move for the given situation.

Again, your film is an excellent example of how to reverse an overly aggressive opponent attacking you with speed advantage, but I think both the reversal maneuvers made and the mistakes of the opponent need to be acknowledged to recognize why it worked, in order for this to be a good learning tool.

<S>
Ryno

In that type of situation the manauever is based on judgement. Initially, some people do pull up, which is the smart thing to do.  You are in a defenseive position so generally you would have less E. In the position there, I had to judge E, cut throttle, and put a notch of flaps in, that's something that is hard to know in the video without sound. It looks a lot easier performed here than it actually is. That's why I don't personally  consider it a BFM. He wasn't going that fast. But just fast enough to catch me. If you noticed, he had stall limiter on. He could have cut throttle a lot more and stayed in the turn better. But I would have pushed it harder too. Pull up go round and round, he should have killed me.  He didn't see it coming, that's the point, and most people dont.

I honestly don't think there is a better defensive maneuver. When a plane has a considerable amount of E, there ain't much you can do to stay out of there sights and then get a chance to hit them too.

[BaldEagl]

Rolling when loaded is admittedly fun.


BTW, it looked like a barrel role defense to me.

[Puma44]

I honestly don't think there is a better defensive maneuver. When a plane has a considerable amount of E, there ain't much you can do to stay out of there sights and then get a chance to hit them too.

If you don't know the fundamentals and always depend on your best move, eventually someone who does know the fundamentals will come along, easily counter your best move, and lower the hammer.  Be alert he is lurking about waiting for you.   

[DmonSlyr]

On fualt. I realise that you can perform the maneuver while going into a nose high turn and then doing the roll to spiral climb tecnique. As i was experimenting tonight.  However, as Rynorush mention to me in a conversation we had earlier tonight, these would both be BRD but different forms of the trick. So ultimately I'd like to point out that the BRD can incorporate each of these tactics. So with that being said, I think what I wanted to show in that video was the exact move I was trying to demonstrate when having to go into a nose down turn.

From the video you could not see or be able to understand his E state. But it was the correct move to perform during the circumstances. So I wanted the community to see the move on film in its entirety.

  

[DmonSlyr]

If you don't know the fundamentals and always depend on your best move, eventually someone who does know the fundamentals will come along, easily counter your best move, and lower the hammer.  Be alert he is lurking about waiting for you.   

First: I wouldn't call this move a "fundamental" trick, and you must know the fundamentals to perform this properly.

Second: There is no better defensive trick to use other than this one in this type of situation.

3rd: Yes there are people who know how to defend against this trick, but that's is obligatory because they are in the advantage and it should be avoidable. Being in the disadvantage with a plane that is going faster than you starting on your is a tough position. The attacker will get greedy and impatient almost every time. Depending on their plane, you can almost get them into this position every time.

4th. I can garauntee you Puma, that if we were to meet in the MA, without you knowing it was me, and you saw a low 109g14 to pounce on, you would almost certainly follow me in the turn unless you were I90d or something or had way too much speed. I promises you that you would fall for it.

5th: I could show you some other tricks in AH that would completely suprise you. So while you may know what you are writing, I don't think you'd have a very good time seeing how well they get performed against you in the virtual skies of AH. Just saying.

[Puma44]

4th. I can garauntee you Puma, that if we were to meet in the MA, without you knowing it was me, and you saw a low 109g14 to pounce on, you would almost certainly follow me in the turn unless you were I90d or something or had way too much speed. I promises you that you would fall for it.

This statement proves that you don't know the fundamentals nor do you seem interested in them.  One thing for sure, you can't guarantee or promise anything.  Your best move is all you've got.