Author Topic: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)  (Read 5164 times)

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2015, 08:13:00 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_capacitance

also, saying "its not the voltage that kills, its the current" is the most dangerous thing to tell anyone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xONZcBJh5A

No its not. Quit creating horror stories out of nothing. Even your video admitted 'there's some truth to it' and the video basically verified what I said. The voltages are not dangerous, the current is. You can very safely touch a 6kV voltage if you do it through a 20Mohm resistor. I've done this countless times when building electrostatic speakers. Through ESL panel and high voltage step-up power circuit building I'm quite familiar with static electricity and high voltage systems ;)

The fact that the joules raise with voltage has nothing to do with the basic fact that you can have 100 kilovolts and it won't do you a thing if you have enough resistivity to limit the current to a safe amount. Despite the fact that you need less amps at high voltages to create danger, the amps still matter. Same thing with electronic components, voltage or static charge does nothing to (at least most) of them. But when you connect that static charge to ground, current flows at near short cirquit amperage through the sensitive electronics and kills it.

Actually as far as human body goes, the dangerous voltage starts from 20 volts if there's conditions for current to flow (wet body).

https://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html
 


You claim to be the expert on ESD and yet a few posts ago you didn't even know that an ESD mat is conductive and needs to be grounded. Give it a rest, please.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2015, 09:13:47 AM »
By the way for all of you who were kind enough to worry about my thermal paste, I just got the back-order heatsink-fan combo (Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO) from the post and I'll be replacing the stock heatsink with it. I'll redo the paste probably tonight. With the new heatsink I'm going to be pushing the poor G chip to 4.7Ghz or more with some overvoltage.

But for the purposes of the guide, the stock heatsink has kept the peak temperatures below 70°C at 4.3Ghz even with the 'horribly badly done' paste ;)

For a stock heatsink and silent fan profile that is a good result.

Next week I'll be getting parts for my i5 4690k based build. The Asus motherboard combo worked so well in my budget build that I chose to buy another set and build a mid-tier build with a budget of 1600 euros. I considered for a second to make a X99 based system but that would have cost me 3000 euros and give maybe 10-15% higher fps in the end.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 09:29:12 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline olds442

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2015, 10:12:46 AM »
OLDS can you at least say this is an informative post by Ripley and agree he did a good job.

LawnDart
I never said this was a bad post, infact I think it should be a sticky because its simple and informative to first time builders. I was simply pointing out that he was mistaken on his ESD protection.

Its very possible to build PCs with out any ESD protection as I have said. For me, I like to be better safe than sorry.

only a moron would use Dolby positioning in a game.
IGN: cutlass "shovels and rakes and implements of destruction"

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2015, 10:17:37 AM »
I never said this was a bad post, infact I think it should be a sticky because its simple and informative to first time builders. I was simply pointing out that he was mistaken on his ESD protection.

Its very possible to build PCs with out any ESD protection as I have said. For me, I like to be better safe than sorry.

I really fail to see where I was mistaken. What do you want from me? Did I or did I not say that you should preferably wear an anti-static wristband? I mean what is your issue?

Quote
Preface: Always - ALWAYS ground yourself to the metal of the computer case before you install any part or touch any part inside the computer. Static electricity kills (components)! Preferably use an anti-static wristband.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline olds442

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2015, 10:48:25 AM »
I really fail to see where I was mistaken. What do you want from me? Did I or did I not say that you should preferably wear an anti-static wristband? I mean what is your issue?
Actually I don't want anything, I was just pointing out the flaw in your grounding.

Also, ohms law is a linear relationship, as voltage goes up, or resistance goes down, current goes up. And the current alone doesn't kill you, as seen by the static discharge model in the video, its time dependent aswell.
only a moron would use Dolby positioning in a game.
IGN: cutlass "shovels and rakes and implements of destruction"

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2015, 10:53:41 AM »
Actually I don't want anything, I was just pointing out the flaw in your grounding.

Also, ohms law is a linear relationship, as voltage goes up, or resistance goes down, current goes up. And the current alone doesn't kill you, as seen by the static discharge model in the video, its time dependent aswell.

You pointed out correctly that if the case is not plugged to the wall you're not actually grounding yourself to the case. Touching the case negates the chance of ESD however regardless of the case floating or being grounded. This is because if your body is charged and the case is grounded, your body static will dissipate on touch.

If your case is not grounded and you touch it, if there was any potential difference between you and the case, it's now gone. You can safely install the component.

The electrostatic discharge requires two conditions: Either ground is present or oppositely loaded charge is present. Touching will effectively dissipate both those conditions.

If there's no potential difference it is physically impossible for ESD to occur.

If we make a little thought game, think about this:

Have you ever got zap by static electricity? Yes? Many times. Have you ever got zapped twice in a row by static electricity? No?

Have you ever got zapped by an object you just previously touched? No?

Fuel for thought...  :headscratch:

The only exception to the rules above is our poor kitty who creates an insane amount of static walking on our 100% wool carpets. He gets zapped to the nose all the time. But even he doesn't get zapped twice unless he rubs his hair enough to create more static.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 11:13:06 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline olds442

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2015, 04:55:52 PM »
You pointed out correctly that if the case is not plugged to the wall you're not actually grounding yourself to the case. Touching the case negates the chance of ESD however regardless of the case floating or being grounded. This is because if your body is charged and the case is grounded, your body static will dissipate on touch.

If your case is not grounded and you touch it, if there was any potential difference between you and the case, it's now gone. You can safely install the component.

The electrostatic discharge requires two conditions: Either ground is present or oppositely loaded charge is present. Touching will effectively dissipate both those conditions.

If there's no potential difference it is physically impossible for ESD to occur.

If we make a little thought game, think about this:

Have you ever got zap by static electricity? Yes? Many times. Have you ever got zapped twice in a row by static electricity? No?

Have you ever got zapped by an object you just previously touched? No?

Fuel for thought...  :headscratch:

The only exception to the rules above is our poor kitty who creates an insane amount of static walking on our 100% wool carpets. He gets zapped to the nose all the time. But even he doesn't get zapped twice unless he rubs his hair enough to create more static.
You would have to constantly hold the case to keep the potential difference 0. Touching the case that is not grounded will not dissipate static charge.
only a moron would use Dolby positioning in a game.
IGN: cutlass "shovels and rakes and implements of destruction"

Offline SIM

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2015, 05:24:25 PM »
Ripley, Nice post Sir. Someone will surely use it to their advantage.

olds, you lost me with this statement........


You do know that ground and neutral are different right? Ground is a pole that goes 13ft down at your own house. Neutral is grounded at the power lines.

What planetary group dictates a 13ft ground rod on a home? Its not the NEC here in the US.  And a neutral is generally any bare copper GROUND that is tied to the GROUND buss in a breaker panel. Guess what? THE GROUND ROD IS TIED TO THE SAME BUSS.

I know this is late in coming to the conversation, but you blew your point making an argument over semantics.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2015, 01:18:53 AM »
You would have to constantly hold the case to keep the potential difference 0. Touching the case that is not grounded will not dissipate static charge.

You are correct. It will however negate any potential difference which is required for two floating objects to zap each others. When you and your target float at the same +5kV potential for example there can be no discharge. ESD occurs only if you have, say, 5kV positive charge and your case (or object under it, connected to the case) has a negative charge. When you touch, sparks fly when your potentials are leveled (but not negated like when grounding). After your potentials are same no ESD happens anymore.

Same as when you get shocked by a sofa canvas. First touch zaps you, after that your potential difference is gone and you won't be zapped again unless you shuffle your vinyl pants enough to create static.

If what I say wouldn't be true, 99% of computer installations in this world would result in broken hardware since objects would just remain charged differently despite being touched. It would also mean that we would be all doomed to eternal static shocks whenever we move somewhere as charges would just remain forever.

If you think of it, what IS the ESD shock? It's a transfer of electrons from an object to another. When it gets strong enough it creates an arc. Now, once the electrons have been transfered via a medium (your hand) the system (you and the object you touch) have reached an equilibrium that negates further shocks.

I have one practical example for you: I have an electrostatic speaker. It's a sandwich structure with a 2 micron mylar sheet sandwiched between perforated steel plates.
The mylar holds a 4 kilovolt negative charge which keeps it flat centered between the metal stators at all times (well, except when you direct 1V - 7 kilovolts of AC to the stators at which time the membrane starts to move in pace of the AC, producing sound as it pushes air).

Now, the whole speaker is floating (it has to be due to design or it wouldn't be working in the first place). If I join the cables of the stators and the mylar membrane together, a spark occurs. Once. After that the mylar no longer remains centered between the stators because there are no electrostatic forces to keep it there anymore as the stators and the membrane have now reached the equilibrium. No further sparks appear no matter how I try to connect the + to the - or stator to the membrane.

Having said that - I agree with you Olds. It is always better to ground yourself by plugging your PSU and using the anti-static wrist wrap that is securely connected to a bare metal part of the case.

And see, now most of you learned something new - the working method of an electrostatic speaker lol. It's in essence a giant capacitor. In my case 6.5 foot tall and 2 feet wide. But only less than a half inch thick.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 01:49:07 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2015, 01:50:11 AM »
This is all over blown. I assemble my PCs with my socked feet resting on a running treadmill with a carpeted belt. No issues.
YMMV.

I have my ssd outside of the case on the carpet.  been like that for god knows how many months.  zero problems.  also when I build my computer, i build it on the kitchen table and countertops.  was wearing my boots which is the reason my first hd is broken on one side,  slipped out of my hand and tried to catch with with my foot so it wouldnt hit the floor too hard, i more like kicked it.  also have had zero problems with that hd.

I dont know how many times i have taken my computer apart or upgraded one thing or another.  I  never had a mat or wrist band.  one thing I always did, well when she was around, I would always ask my gf for a good luck kiss.  she never knew it was to make sure I didnt have any static electricity.  I never did.

you guys are arguing now for the sake of arguing.  the first 3 or 4 posts on static electricity basically said it all.


semp
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2015, 03:06:37 AM »
I have my ssd outside of the case on the carpet.  been like that for god knows how many months.  zero problems.  also when I build my computer, i build it on the kitchen table and countertops.  was wearing my boots which is the reason my first hd is broken on one side,  slipped out of my hand and tried to catch with with my foot so it wouldnt hit the floor too hard, i more like kicked it.  also have had zero problems with that hd.

I dont know how many times i have taken my computer apart or upgraded one thing or another.  I  never had a mat or wrist band.  one thing I always did, well when she was around, I would always ask my gf for a good luck kiss.  she never knew it was to make sure I didnt have any static electricity.  I never did.

you guys are arguing now for the sake of arguing.  the first 3 or 4 posts on static electricity basically said it all.


semp

The sole reason for my thread was to show people that building your own computer is no rocket science and can be done in a few very simple steps. For a second I thought I achieved my goal lol.

I know there are many people who are struggling with old computers and 15fps arenas. If even one of them manages to find the budget to upgrade using these instructions I'm a happy camper.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline ebfd11

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2015, 06:34:12 AM »
Ripley

I conncur with what you posted and I only wish people would see it as just that and not a discussion on EMP's UMP's or MMP's ...

Great job sir,  :aok

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Offline olds442

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2015, 11:10:42 AM »
Ripley, Nice post Sir. Someone will surely use it to their advantage.

olds, you lost me with this statement........

What planetary group dictates a 13ft ground rod on a home? Its not the NEC here in the US.  And a neutral is generally any bare copper GROUND that is tied to the GROUND buss in a breaker panel. Guess what? THE GROUND ROD IS TIED TO THE SAME BUSS.

I know this is late in coming to the conversation, but you blew your point making an argument over semantics.

Ground during normal operation has no current through it. Neutral however does carry current and when there is a difference in current between neutral and live that means there is a problem (this is how GFIs work). Secondly, You're correct in saying ground is not 13ft rod at the house itself, but at the powerlines it is infact 13ft into the ground. And neutral and ground are eventually tied to the same bus but serve different purposes.

Ripley

I conncur with what you posted and I only wish people would see it as just that and not a discussion on EMP's UMP's or MMP's ...

Great job sir,  :aok

LawnDart

I get the impression that arguing is bad on this board. I already said ripley's post was a solid post and served its purpose very well. I do think that arguing a somewhat important point especially with older hardware.

I have my ssd outside of the case on the carpet.  been like that for god knows how many months.  zero problems.  also when I build my computer, i build it on the kitchen table and countertops.  was wearing my boots which is the reason my first hd is broken on one side,  slipped out of my hand and tried to catch with with my foot so it wouldnt hit the floor too hard, i more like kicked it.  also have had zero problems with that hd.

I dont know how many times i have taken my computer apart or upgraded one thing or another.  I  never had a mat or wrist band.  one thing I always did, well when she was around, I would always ask my gf for a good luck kiss.  she never knew it was to make sure I didnt have any static electricity.  I never did.

you guys are arguing now for the sake of arguing.  the first 3 or 4 posts on static electricity basically said it all.


semp
That SSD case is grounded by the sata power connector. Like I said, its possible to not get struct by lightning while swimming in a pool in a lightning storm, also the fact that modern hardware has ESD protection built also fixes most issues.

Arguing for the sake of arguing is the best way to learn new things, I would bet a lot of people have learned new things by this thread and this argument. I know I have, and with that I shall end the argument.
only a moron would use Dolby positioning in a game.
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Offline Bizman

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2015, 01:23:07 PM »
Arguing for the sake of arguing is the best way to learn new things, I would bet a lot of people have learned new things by this thread and this argument. I know I have, and with that I shall end the argument.
Arguing for the sake of arguing is very exasperating to read if you're not involved yourself.
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Offline SIM

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Re: Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2015, 02:46:51 PM »
Ya know olds.................


your just not worth it.......

Nice ruined post Ripley, it started out well enough.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 03:09:05 PM by SIM »