Author Topic: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on  (Read 2225 times)

Offline Zoney

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2015, 02:39:23 PM »

I wonder if anyone has asked an Auschwitz survivor if burning all those people alive in German cities made a difference, and if they thought it was justified. Indeed, what society stoops to such depravity?

You really need to get off your high horse.  There were Auschwitz survivors because the war ended earlier than it would have without the bomber raids.  The entire country was a "war machine" so the entire country was a target to stop the war.

No one attacked Germany first.   There was no way to tip-toe around and play nice, Germany was intent on World Domination and would have stopped at nothing to succeed.
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2015, 03:07:02 PM »
YES!

The kids getting killed was a shame.

Adolf Hitler and the German People were to blame NO ONE ELSE.

The Emperor and the Japanese people were to blame NO ONE ELSE.

Ask the parents of a dead GI on the Normandy beaches who was to blame!

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2015, 03:18:33 PM »
Zoney, the strategic bombing campaign against Germany was nothing short of a failure. If anything it hardened their will to fight and made moderate or even anti-Nazi officers in the Wehrmacht rally around the Nazi leadership. The war of annihilation that was waged by the Allied air forces made it clear to every German that they were all in the same boat. Killing civilians has absolutely zero impact on the military capability of the enemy. The Russians liberated Auschwitz and other extermination camps, and nothing the Allied air forces did or didn't do would have changed that.

There is no moral justification for killing children and other noncombatants. None what so ever. If a man kills your family and in turn you kill his family in revenge, no jury or court in the world would find it justified. The Jews are still hunting Nazis to this day, and that's a righteous cause. They have never gone after the Nazis families. After the war Wiesenthal, one of the most famous Nazi hunters, lived for many years only a few blocks away from the family of Adolf Eichmann in Linz, Austria. The Nazi criminal he would later capture.

I say that deliberately killing civilians is not war. It's murder. You retort with "you really need to get off your high horse." That says everything I need to know about your moral character.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 03:24:37 PM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2015, 03:23:35 PM »
Quote
It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land. We shall not, for instance, be able to get housing materials out of Germany for our own needs because some temporary provision would have to be made for the Germans themselves. The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforth be more strictly studied in our own interests rather than that of the enemy.

The Foreign Secretary has spoken to me on this subject, and I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives, such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive.

- Sir Winston Churchill

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Offline Zoney

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2015, 03:27:11 PM »
I'll tell ya what sport, ask those who had children who lived because the war was fought as quickly as possibly how many of their kids they would be willing to sacrifice to take the time to only kill combatants.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2015, 03:32:38 PM »
It was about as legit as Catch 22. An anti-war movie based on mostly fiction.

At least History has finally admitted it was a legitimate target and revised the death toll to more realistic numbers.

It was a terrible moment in History.
Have you even read catch-22 and have any idea what it is? Yes, it was a book before the movie, and it made absolutely no pretence of being historical - far far from it.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2015, 03:36:13 PM »
Zoney, why not simply ask those who lost sons needlessly in USAAF and RAF bombers over Europe. Men who were sent to needlessly murder civilians, not kill enemy soldiers. The strategic bombing of Germany did not shorten the war. It might actually have prolonged it by hardening the German people. Such things are in any case useless speculation.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2015, 03:40:18 PM »
The strategic bombing of Germany did not shorten the war. It might actually have prolonged it by hardening the German people. Such things are in any case useless speculation.


Speaking of useless speculation:  I gather you have not read either the US Strategic Bombing survey or Albert Speer's memoirs.

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2015, 03:51:50 PM »
I have, but the best book I've read on the subject is Roger A. Freeman's books on the Mighty Eight. The man whose name now is synonymous with the research center of the National Museum of the Mighty Eighth Air Force. I recommend it. He concludes:

Quote
The Eighth Air Force was looked upon by USAAF commanders as their prime instrument to test their doctrine of strategic bombardment. The supreme hope was that such a campaign could render massive devastation to the war industry of a highly industrialized nation, like Germany, so that it would be unable to supply and support its armed forces; in effect, bombing into submission. In the event the combined strength of all Allied strategic forces proved unable to achieve this against Germany. What strategic bombing could achieve was evinced in the spring of 1945, but that it was decisive with the weapons and delivery systems of the Hitler war, must always remain speculative.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 03:54:46 PM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2015, 04:14:34 PM »
I have, but the best book I've read on the subject is Roger A. Freeman's books on the Mighty Eight. The man whose name now is synonymous with the research center of the National Museum of the Mighty Eighth Air Force. I recommend it.


Freeman's book is unquestionably the best single-volume history of the 8th AF, but he does not delve deeply into the results of the bombing, I imagine because he was focused on the organization itself.

Overy said it better than I can.  From Overy, Richard, “Why the Allies Won,” W.W. Norton & Company, New York, 1995, isbn 0-393-03925-0, page 131:


The stifling of industrial potential caused by bombing is inherently difficult to quantify, but it was well beyond the 10 per cent suggested by the post-war bombing survey, particularly in the cluster of war industries specifically under attack.  At the end of January 1945 Albert Speer and his ministerial colleagues met in Berlin to sum up what bombing had done to production schedules for 1944.  They found that Germany had produced 35 per cent fewer tanks than planned, 31 per cent fewer aircraft and 42 per cent fewer lorries as a result of bombing.  The denial of these huge resources to German forces in 1944 fatally weakened their response to bombing and invasion, and eased the path of Allied armies.

The indirect effects were more important still, for the bombing offensive forced the German economy to switch very large resources away from equipment for the fighting fronts, using them instead to combat the bombing threat.  By 1944 one-third of all German artillery production consisted of anti-aircraft guns; the anti-aircraft effort absorbed 20 per cent of all ammunition produced, one-third of the output of the optical industry, and between half and two-thirds of the production of radar and signals equipment.  As a result of this diversion, the German army and navy were desperately short of essential radar and communications equipment for other tasks.  The bombing also ate into Germany’s scarce manpower:  by 1944 an estimated two million Germans were engaged in anti-aircraft defence, in repairing shattered factories and in generally cleaning up the destruction.  From the spring of that year frantic efforts were made to burrow underground, away from the bombing.  Fantastic schemes were promoted which absorbed almost half of all industrial construction and close to half a million workers.  Of course, if German efforts to combat the bombing had succeeded the effort would not have been wasted.  As it was the defences and repair teams did enough to keep production going until the autumn of 1944, but not enough to prevent the rapid erosion of German economic power thereafter, and not enough to prevent the massive redirection of economic effort from 1943.  Bombing forced Germany to divide the economy between too many competing claims, none of which could, in the end, be satisfied.  In the air over Germany, or on the fronts in Russia and France, German forces lacked the weapons to finish the job.  The combined effects of direct destruction and the diversion of resources denied German forces approximately half their battle-front weapons and equipment in 1944.  It is difficult not to regard this margin as decisive.

At p 133:

There has always seemed something fundamentally implausible about the contention of bombing’s critics that dropping almost 2.5 million tons of bombs on tautly-stretched industrial systems and war-weary urban populations would not seriously weaken them.  Germany and Japan had no special immunity.  Japan’s military economy was devoured in the flames; her population desperately longed for escape from bombing.  German forces lost half of the weapons needed at the front, millions of workers absented themselves from work, and the economy gradually creaked almost to a halt.  Bombing turned the whole of Germany, in Speer’s words, into a “gigantic front.”  It was a front the Allies were determined to win; it absorbed huge resources on both sides.  It was a battlefield in which only the infantry were missing.  The final victory of the bombers in 1944 was, Speer concluded, “the greatest lost battle on the German side…”  For all the arguments over the morality or operational effectiveness of the bombing campaigns, the air offensive was one of the decisive elements in Allied victory.

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Offline Zoney

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2015, 04:17:37 PM »
useless

 I'm done talking to you sir.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2015, 04:24:05 PM »
We can discuss the effectiveness of bombing industrial targets to the end of time, and there are many opinions both for and against. That's why I said it was useless speculation. However, the deliberate killing of civilians and the wanton destruction of civilian property is another matter entirely. What effect it had on the war effort is not measurable and in any case it is immoral regardless of effect. A county that has to murder hundreds of thousands of civilians to win a war does not deserve to win. Murdering civilians to "shorten the war" is even more reprehensible. Only a sociopath would sacrifice a child to save a soldier.

We all know where we stand on this matter. Further discussion is futile. End of discussion, on my part.
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Offline SysError

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2015, 05:43:02 PM »
Have you even read catch-22 and have any idea what it is? Yes, it was a book before the movie, and it made absolutely no pretence of being historical - far far from it.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2015, 06:15:47 PM »
There is no doubt that the 8th AF bombing campaign as well as RAF bomber command area bombings contributed to the final result. However, one can argue whether all this huge amount of resources would have better spent elsewhere. The casualties in the 8th AF surpass the total casualties of the US Marines, if I remember correctly. Casualties of heavy RAF bombers were equally horrendous. Was it worth the result? This is even before arguing about the morality in bombing cities to the ground.

Times were different then and the Nazis were clearly the greater evil here, yet Dresden signifies all that was ugly on the other side as well. The bombing took place in Feb. 1945, when it was pretty clear that Germany is going to lose. The value of strategic bombing of cities when it was clear that the war will not last more than a couple of months anyway was almost nil. Same thing can be said about the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There was no need to evaporate two cities in order to demonstrate the new weapon and demand surrender, at a time when Japan has already lost all its offensive capabilities and was basically delaying the inevitable. Dropping nukes on open areas or military installations would have been enough in order to demand surrender - and if not, THEN you really nuke a city. I believe that the decision to nuke cities was aimed at the Soviets to not only make it clear that the US had these weapons, but that it is willing to use it to their full effect, without the need to drop some on USSR as well.

As I said, times were different and after a war as brutal as WWII, no one wanted to take or give any morality checks once it was over.
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Offline Kenne

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Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2015, 06:31:16 PM »
what I see after only 4 years of unrestrained bombing of Germany is that, 70yrs later, Germany is a place in the world.
a place that many wish to visit.

im for carpet bombing.
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