Author Topic: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on  (Read 2236 times)

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2015, 04:53:45 PM »
Killing civilians has absolutely zero impact on the military capability of the enemy.

Sorry if this had already been brought up but this comment stopped me dead in my tracks.  Who exactly do you think worked in all those factories manufacturing the weapons of war?

In the US woman, who had largely stayed out of the work force, went to work in the factories supporting the war effort.  Resources were in such dire need they made pennies out of steel (I have a few).  To think it was different in any other country involved is simply ignorant.

That doesn't necessarily justify killing civilians but it certainly did have some effect on the military capability of the enemy.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2015, 05:54:37 PM »
Why do you assume workers in Germany lived under the same circumstances as in America? Why do you assume ANYTHING in Germany was comparable to America? Their war reality was very different, as it was in the UK. German workers critical to the war industry did not live in homes, but in bunkers. Luftwaffe radars gave ample warning of impending raids. Their families were sent to the countryside. German factories were dispersed into a "cottage industry" away from industrial centers or hidden underground in tunnels and mines. Slave labor from the occupied countries were used extensively in almost every unskilled labor capacity. When Dresden was leveled nothing essential to Germany's war effort was destroyed.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline SysError

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1009
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2015, 05:58:18 PM »
.... When Dresden was leveled nothing essential to Germany's war effort was destroyed.

That is the biggest reason people will be discussing Dresden 100 years from now.

=======================
SysError

Dante's Crew

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Offline Groth

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 565
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2015, 06:21:13 PM »
 I applaud your trying to remove all guilt from german public.....
 A hopeless task.
 And there WERE ovens IN germany.....why EVER did you think not? Do I need to post a link? Seriously?
 Your a borderline denier of the holocaust...and a true worry, as those like you will be the ones initiating the next one.
                                                                 JGroth

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2015, 06:22:53 PM »
I'm not the one trying to justify murdering civilians...
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Groth

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 565
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #95 on: February 15, 2015, 06:24:06 PM »
 Keep repeating that to yourself.....
                               JGroth

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #96 on: February 15, 2015, 06:32:32 PM »
You know JGroth, if you get the impression from reading my posts that I'm a Holocaust denier then you're clearly a blithering rule#4. Any post of yours will henceforth be read by me within that context.

There is no legitimacy in the deliberate slaughter of civilians. No matter the politics, race, religion or the actions of the enemy. No matter the outcome of the war. Killing defenseless men, women and children is pure evil regardless of the rationale behind it. Regardless of how and where and why they are killed. Pure evil.

Your a borderline denier of the holocaust...

« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 06:34:21 PM by PR3D4TOR »
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Groth

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 565
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2015, 06:45:36 PM »
 Twist..twist
                          JGroth

Offline SysError

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1009
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #98 on: February 15, 2015, 06:56:37 PM »
... Your a borderline denier of the holocaust...

.. Any post of yours will henceforth be read by me within that context.


That's a bit over the top don't you think?

You guys were making interesting points back and forth and I for one was interested in what BOTH of you had to say.

Let me ask this question, put aside Dresden.  What about Hamburg?  Was Hamburg, especially in the early part of the war, a fair target?



=======================
SysError

Dante's Crew

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #99 on: February 15, 2015, 07:03:44 PM »
In the end civilian populations always end up paying for the mistakes made by the governments they themselves empower.

So it was with Carthage, with Rome and so it was with Germany and Japan.

If you are paying attention, the retribution for hosing off Hellfires into the homes of suspected terrorists, killing wives and children along with the target, is beginning to show itself amongst the civilian population of the government that is doing it. Requiem In Pace, Kayla Mueller. Let me tell you, Charlie Hebdo, I believe that is just the beginning, I'm certainly not using Copenhagen snuff anymore.

This just in: Total war is........................... ............................. .....................total war.





Always has been.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #100 on: February 15, 2015, 07:05:18 PM »
Let me ask this question, put aside Dresden.  What about Hamburg?  Was Hamburg, especially in the early part of the war, a fair target?

The industry in any city was fair target, sure. The population, no.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3069
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #101 on: February 15, 2015, 07:14:32 PM »
What this, IMO, is all about is that "good" people should distinguish themself from "bad" people by having a higher moral standard. That's include respecting the human life and not cause more death and suffering upon people than necessary. That includes for example treating POW:s with respect, no torture etc, and try no avoid civilian casualties as far as its possible. Dresden bombing was a step away from it, with the war already won Dresden was not a high value military target worth the destruction. Even the winning side must be able to say "OK, we made a misstake there". It might not be at the same level as deliberately killing milions of people in gas chambers but still, fire bombing a city full of civilians is not what good people should do, no matter what.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #102 on: February 15, 2015, 07:16:05 PM »
Exactly.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Swoop

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9179
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #103 on: February 15, 2015, 08:14:28 PM »
ok, so lets examine the situation fully.

Was Dresden unnecessary?   Yes, absolutely.  Then why was it done?  Because the British Government had backed area bombing years before and no politician reverses a decision without a damn good reason.  And also because the RAF had gotten damn good at it.  Huge industrial effort had been made to supply thousands of Lancaster bombers and if they'd been sat on the tarmac not being used then some smart arsed politician would have kicked up a stink in Parliament about it.

So why was area bombing approved?

Reverse back to 1941 and have a look at the political landscape.  You've got Britain, hemmed in on its island, being starved by the U-boat campaign, no fleet of landing craft or much in the way of an expeditionary force left after Dunkirk....no way to wage war.  Impotent, if you will.  What land forces the British had left were either dug in for defence or kicking Italian butt in North Africa.  Churchill also had Stalin asking, begging, him to do something.....anything.....to help, to draw some of the tidal wave of German forces steam rolling over Russia away.  And so, Bomber Harris comes along with his plan that the level bomber can win the war on its own.  What else could Churchill do but approve the idea or be seen as impotent by foreign states and the British population alike?

However, we'd tried daylight bombing of Germany back in 1939 and it didn't work well.  At that time in the war, without a long range escort fighter available, the only option was night-time bombing.....which means area bombing, can't precision bomb what you can't see.....which means cities are the only viable target.  Result:  Hundreds of thousands of de-homed workers, Germany's industrial base significantly reduced on every raid.

But the thing about the English......the thing that most of the world has discovered at least once throughout history......the thing.....the actual thing is.......the English are the cruellest, most sadistic, b*****ds in the history of the world.  You foreigners have no idea just how insane I'm talking here.  Christ Alive, the things the English have done to their own people don't bear thinking about........did you know there was once a not very popular king of England who was executed.....but because those in power wanted the people to think he'd died of natural causes the execution was by sticking a red hot poker up the kings backside and waiting for the steam to stop coming out of his ears.  Sadistic or what!!  I tell ya, Charles Manson has got nothing on your average Englishman.

'Escalation of hostilities' and 'moral standards' mean nothing to these people.  One German bomber accidentally drops a 100lb bomb on our local chippy cos he was lost and it was dark and the English respond by setting your whole country on fire. When asked to do a necessary task, no matter how despicable, the English will find the best, most efficient way to complete the task.   It stems from the way we bring up our children.  When I was 6 there was a school bully and my dear old sweet mother said to me, if he hits you you hit him back twice as hard....and when he goes down stand on his bollocks.

In 1941 the RAF was haphazardly bombing German cities.  By 1944 it was a fine art:   Pathfinders go in first with expert navigators to drop flares at the target.  The first wave of heavy Lancasters go in with GP bombs designed to blow out every bit of glass in every window.......so that the second wave of Lancs with incendiary bombs can start a fire which will burn out of control.  And then follow up with a 3rd and 4th wave of GP bombs and incendiaries to make sure.  Throw in a few bombers dropping time delay land mines designed to kill anyone trying to fight the fires and what you have there is the most efficient way of destroying a city other than an A-bomb.

Why was Dresden destroyed?  Cos they started it and the RAF was good at it.  



« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 08:46:05 PM by Swoop »

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9368
Re: Dresden bombing marked 70 years on
« Reply #104 on: February 15, 2015, 08:20:59 PM »
Why do you assume workers in Germany lived under the same circumstances as in America? Why do you assume ANYTHING in Germany was comparable to America? Their war reality was very different, as it was in the UK. German workers critical to the war industry did not live in homes, but in bunkers. Luftwaffe radars gave ample warning of impending raids. Their families were sent to the countryside. German factories were dispersed into a "cottage industry" away from industrial centers or hidden underground in tunnels and mines. Slave labor from the occupied countries were used extensively in almost every unskilled labor capacity.


That is simply wrong.

Will get sources for you tomorrow.

- oldman the redneck