Author Topic: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4  (Read 2817 times)

Offline Volron

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2015, 01:53:13 PM »
Comparing the McLaren to the Z06, or even a ZR1 is like comparing the A6M2 to the F-14D.  The McLaren is in a league of it's own, and a car I wouldn't mind having. :)  Too bad there are only like 2 places in all of the US that could actually support the McLaren properly, and ballz to moving to California for both places. :furious
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Offline oldskool65

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2015, 01:59:46 PM »
Just watched Top Gear it looks like at last a Mustang that handles, looks amazing and for £65k a lot of car for the money
So it looks like American sports cars are to cease to be the butt of the joke among European petrol heads
I haven't seen one for real yet so waiting eagerly .Have they sorted build quality as well ? coz if they have it will sell well here too. Well done Ford
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« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 02:01:41 PM by oldskool65 »
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Offline SilverZ06

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2015, 02:04:30 PM »
Just watched Top Gear it looks like at last a Mustang that handles, looks amazing and for £65k a lot of car for the money
So it looks like American sports cars are to cease to be the butt of the joke among European petrol heads
I haven't seen one for real yet so waiting eagerly .Have they sorted build quality as well ? coz if they have it will sell well here too. Well done Ford
( explain sofa please )

 :O I just fell out of my chair. The head basher of all that is American just typed that? Someone must have hacked his account.  :uhoh

Offline -ammo-

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2015, 02:08:10 PM »
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Offline oldskool65

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2015, 02:15:14 PM »
:O I just fell out of my chair. The head basher of all that is American just typed that? Someone must have hacked his account.  :uhoh
Only things that are American and rubbish  For example I love American folk music from the Appalachians and Delta Blues , You guys misunderstand I despise American foreign policy ,the obsession with guns and up till the new Mustang your sports cars too I have no problem with the people (the ones i met anyway) thanks ammo
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Offline ink

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2015, 04:25:57 PM »
 :aok

cool vid...

would enjoy taking that thing for a drive. :rock

Offline Gman

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2015, 04:52:46 PM »
Great video of that new Mac on the track.  It's mind boggling when you see something like that first hand, the Z06 must be insane acceleration, I've had numerous hops in various ZR1s in our car clubs in Calgary, and to see that British supercar walk away in the straightaways like that is pretty cool.

If you can get a new 2016 that'd be great Ammo.  We had a 2011 version of your car for a short time, and I wish I had been able to drive and experience it more.  It's on the list for this year as well, be looking at quite a few cars, so many options now.  Unfortunately a 918, P1, LaFerrari, and such will always be outside my price range, seeing them at local car club meets and shows has to suffice.  I've had a 45 minute ride in the 918, but it was on busy roads and barely got to see what it was capable of.  I'd love a crack at that new Mclaren or Porshe on those great German roads you're on.   In central Canada we have some great long, wide, roads, unfortunately the local constabulary gets angry if you go over 80 mph.  Very angry. 

Offline Widewing

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2015, 06:34:35 PM »
Just keep in mind that the McLaren has over 900 hp, or 1/3 more than the Z06. Yet, the Z06 consistent gained on the twisties....

The McLaren accelerates faster.... It had better for 10 times the cost.

I like old school McLarens... Like a 1968 M6B (customer version of '67 M6A). 725 hp small block Chevy, 1430 lbs. No wings, no ceramic brakes, no traction control (or other electronic nannies), no hyper fast paddle shifting... Just pure driving for a fraction of what a P1 will cost you.

Watch Jim Pace flog one around Road America.... Who is Jim Pace? Winner of 24 hours of Daytona and 12 hours of Sebring in 1996 driving a Riley & Scott.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kPGOpC0LlQ
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Widewing

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Offline ink

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2015, 06:52:34 PM »
Just keep in mind that the McLaren has over 900 hp, or 1/3 more than the Z06. Yet, the Z06 consistent gained on the twisties....

The McLaren accelerates faster.... It had better for 10 times the cost.

I like old school McLarens... Like a 1968 M6B (customer version of '67 M6A). 725 hp small block Chevy, 1430 lbs. No wings, no ceramic brakes, no traction control (or other electronic nannies), no hyper fast paddle shifting... Just pure driving for a fraction of what a P1 will cost you.

Watch Jim Pace flog one around Road America.... Who is Jim Pace? Winner of 24 hours of Daytona and 12 hours of Sebring in 1996 driving a Riley & Scott.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kPGOpC0LlQ


ehhh that vid ended way to soon... :(

Offline Widewing

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2015, 06:57:18 PM »

ehhh that vid ended way to soon... :(

This one runs much longer.... A 1974 Shadow, 1971 M8F and the '68 M6B racing for the win. The Shadow and M8F have over 1,000 hp. Not necessarily enough....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI1up3ukikU
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Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2015, 07:29:40 PM »
Yet, the Z06 consistent gained on the twisties....


I'm not convinced it was the fault of the car, the Z06 driver hit all the marks. Thx for the vid :D
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Offline ink

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2015, 07:45:54 PM »
This one runs much longer.... A 1974 Shadow, 1971 M8F and the '68 M6B racing for the win. The Shadow and M8F have over 1,000 hp. Not necessarily enough....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI1up3ukikU


nice :rock


whats up with that Delta wing.....in another vid... :headscratch:

that thing is weird looking

Offline Widewing

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2015, 10:42:10 PM »
I'm not convinced it was the fault of the car, the Z06 driver hit all the marks. Thx for the vid :D

No question that the P1 driver was in a bit over his head. Supercar owners often are. Lot's of money, but shy on skills and talent. We don't know how hard the Z06 driver was pushing. Not terribly hard from what I can tell. He was smooth, staying on line, being consistent. There's that old saying, that "slow is smooth and smooth is fast".

A substantial number of vintage racers are "gentleman" racers... They can't, or won't drive their car anywhere near its limits. They just like motoring around a race course, shall we say, "briskly". Then there's the minority who drive them in anger. Those guys are fun to watch. Some of them have a great deal of racing under their belts and it shows.

I have a love for the Can-Am cars of the 60's and early 70's. From 1965 on, I attended every Can-Am and USRRC race at Bridgehampton, and four Can-Am races at Watkins Glen (as well as two F1 races there). They were, in their day, the fastest road racing cars on earth. Where F1 and Can-Am races were held at the same circuit, the Can-Am cars were faster. Usually several seconds faster. In its heyday, nearly every top tier driver raced Can-Am. It also paid better than F1 at the time. Of course, an Indy 500 win paid vastly more than either.

Think about the technology that was introduced in Can-Am... Jim Hall led the way with his cutting edge Chaparrals. The 2E of 1966 was years ahead of everyone, including Lotus. Movable (two position) rear wing. Hall moved the radiators to the sides to free up the front of the car for an airfoil under the nose. This airfoil would normally direct air up through diffuser vents, up and over the nose. However, it worked along with the rear wing. One straights, Hall would push a pedal and the wing would go to low drag, low downforce. At the same time, the under nose wing would pop up flush to the undertray, and minimized drag up front. Hall could operate a foot pedal because he also introduced an automatic transmission.

All of these new innovations brought with them development bugs. It took most of the 1966 Can-Am season to sort the cars. However, once fully sorted, they were very fast. With Phil Hill in one car and Hall in a second, they utterly crushed the competition at Leguna Seca, finishing 1-2, with no one even close. In the last race of the season at Las Vegas, Hall had the pole, and Hill right behind him. Hill damaged his car's bodywork colliding with the always too aggressive Parnelli Jones. Still, he was in the hunt. Hall was beaten on the start by Surtees, but was clearly faster and it was obvious he would pass him. However, both Chaparrals suffered a failure of a casting on the airfoils. That meant that the wing was no longer controllable for pitch, and they fluttered badly as high speed. Hall parked his car, Hill had his wing removed (he was still in the championship hunt). 

Hall's next car was the 2F coupe, designed for European competition. The aerodynamics were improved, and a 427 Chevy replaced the aluminum 327. As is common with that kind of upgrade, the engine power proved too much for the driveline, in this case, for the automatic transmission. It wasn't until season's end that they obtained the reliability needed. They won the last race of the season at Brands Hatch, and did so with relative ease. For the 1967 Can-Am season, Hall updated the 2E, redesignated the 2G. Like the 2F, it also ran a 427 Chevy. However, with most of their resources devoted to the 2F program, the 2G was nowhere near being sorted for the Can-Am season. The extra power was too much for the tires used the year before. Over the course of the season, Hall corrected that until it was competitive with McLaren at season's end. Still, he ran only one car to McLaren's two. Chaparral reliability wasn't much worse than McLaren's, but when you only have a single car, if it breaks, there's no second car to gain wins and points. Hall had designed a new car for 1968, the 2H. It was a complete departure from his previous designs, and it was proving to be a difficult car to get working well. So, he upgraded the 2G and ran the entire season with it. It was exceptionally fast at times, especially on high speed circuits. However, it proved to be insufficient to win, although he led often, only to break down, or suffer some issue that slowed the car. Hall was nearly killed in a spectacular crash at the season ending race at Las Vegas. Hall's Can-Am racing was over. For 1969 he rolled out the under-performing 2H and had hired John Surtees to drive it. It was awful and Hall bought a McLaren M12 for Surtees to drive for the rest of the season. Surtees did well enough to finish 4th in the championship.

For 1970, Hall had another technological marvel. This was the 2J vacuum car. Aside from a 7.7 liter Chevy, it also had a second 2-stroke engine that turned two exhaust fans. The car was sealed to the road surface by Lexan skirts. Just starting the 2-stroke in the pits sucked the car down two inches on its suspension. There were no wings. The 2J cornered faster than anything else in the series, it also braked better. Its boxy shape garnered many comments, such as it "looks like the crate they shipped it in". However, when it rolled out on the track, the snickering turned into gasps. It debuted at Watkins Glen, qualifying 3rd with Jackie Stewart driving. In the race, it turned the fastest lap. Due to mechanical trouble, it retired. It did, however, put a fright into the rest of the teams. Vic Elford next drove the car, and it proved 2 seconds faster than either of the Team McLaren cars. In just four  appearances, it set Can-Am on its ear with three poles, four fastest laps and three course records. Reliability would come eventually. Everyone knew that 1971 would bring a fully sorted 2J, and reports that it was breaking course records in shakedown runs prompted the bigger teams to howl like scalded dogs. They complained that it would make every car obsolete and effectively end Can-Am. As if four consecutive championships by McLaren didn't count... So, under pressure, the SCCA banned the 2J. They claimed that the fans were illegal movable aerodynamic surfaces. Even though the FIA disagreed, the ban was not lifted. Jim Hall walked away from Can-Am. McLaren won another championship. However, 1972 changed everything. The Penske 900 hp twin turbo 917/10 Porsche crushed McLaren in 1972, and the 1,100 hp (over 1,500 hp using qualifying boost) 917/30 was even faster in 1973. However, McLaren had already seen the grim future and abandoned Can-Am after 1972 to concentrate on F1 and Indianapolis.

Hall moved on to Indy cars, where he introduced the first ground effects Indy car in 1980, the 2K. It won Indy, and the USAC and CART championships that year.

Those amazing days of minimal rules and vast horsepower are gone now. Everything, every class has a firm formula that largely limits innovation in comparison to the old days of Can-Am. Even LMP-1 is boring... The GT category is hamstrung by numbing rules. F1 has become routine. In the past decade we had the Ferrari show, the Red Bull Show, and now the Mercedes show. Racing desperately needs a new formula libre series like the old Group 7 class, where almost anything goes...

Chaparral 1:


Chaparral 2A:


Chaparral 2B:


Chaparral 2C:


Chaparral 2D (European endurance racing. Chaparrals won at Sebring and Nurburgring):


Chaparral 2E:


Chaparral 2F:


Chaparral 2G:

Comparing the 2G of '67 to 2G of '68:


Chaparral 2H:


Chaparral 2J:



Chaparral 2K:
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 11:42:13 PM by Widewing »
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Widewing

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Offline Shuffler

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2015, 08:01:39 AM »
Hmm impressive until you want to turn or brake lets see how long you stay with a European sports car round the twisties ohh you can't the gt500  (along with most American cars) handles like an ocean liner

There is a factory camaro that runs with the super cars on the track.
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Offline Gman

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Re: 2014 GT500 vs BMW M4
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2015, 11:13:25 AM »
Now that is an accurate write up Widewing.   Apparently you have a vast repository of info on not just WW2 aviation but racing as well.  I have an extended family member, a cousin of some sort of my mothers, who was the only Can-Am champion other than Jaques Villeneuve in the later Can Am years, and I used to hear about it a lot when I was younger.   Horst Kroll, he had a VW shop as well, and always worked on my parents VW Bugs and VW Van when I was a kid. 

SO much technology was invented back in that series, I wish something along those lines would return, as I agree, the current racing series are very limited by rules, regulations, and other bureaucratic BS that it's hampering not just the racing, but the innovations.  F1 this year - this is the first time I've never watched any of the races live, it's completely lost so many people, guys I know that used to be so invested in following it.

Same goes with so many other series.  I'd rather watch street racing videos online than many of the racing series I used to follow, at least there it isn't governed by a bunch of bureaucrats, and driven by competition even if it's in an amateur-hour way.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 11:20:45 AM by Gman »