Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"

[Brooke]

Guys, if you want to dispute an item in a reference, you need to find a reference that refutes it.

Giving your personal feelings on the matter or showing that some different item in the reference is wrong is useless to your position.  Such things are not evidence that the item is wrong.

If a book contains the statement "X is red", giving your personal feeling that X is not red is not useful.  Looking in the book, finding the statement "Bob lives in Ohio" and showing that Bob does not in fact live in Ohio has no bearing at all on whether or not X is red.

[Brooke]

I posted several references.

You guys can complain about what they say all you want.  You can denigrate these references all you want.

But unless you have some references as support, what you are doing carries no weight or usefulness as evidence.  That's not me making a personal judgment -- that's just how it goes in any process where people are trying to establish a fact.

Imagine if I had tried, without references, to argue that Caidin didn't invent "fork-tailed devil", and instead argued things like the following.
1.  I have read lots of books, and none of them said that Caidin made it up, so he didn't make it up.
2.  I like Caidin and think he's a great guy, so he didn't make it up.
3.  Caidin wrote the phrase "fork-tailed" with a hyphen in it, which is correct grammar, so it is clear he didn't make it up.
4.  Caidin's writing looks serious to me, not like propaganda-style writing, so he didn't make it up.
5.  Caidin says in his book that Dick Bong flew P-38's, which is true, so this other thing he said is true.

All of those lines of reasoning are worthless.

[GScholz]

I agree, Caidin didn't invent "fork-tailed devil". I've always thought it was a 1943 Popular Science magazine article that coined the phrase.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kCcDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA96&dq=%22fork+tailed+devil%22&client=firefox-a&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22fork%20tailed%20devil%22&f=false

Clearly just as much a promo-piece as the Life article you found.

However, the other points in your list are not so clear cut. And no, to dispute an item in a reference, I do not need to find a reference that refutes it. Not when your references are based on second hand witness accounts from dubious sources, or in one case a child's witness account twisted by 60 years of hindsight. I do not need to reference a negative proof to dismiss your sources as not credible. Proof of absence is plentiful in this case and stands on its own.

[Randy1]

Maybe Lusche could give us other translations of "Gabelschwanz Teufel"

When you search just  Gabelschwanz.  The term is used with puss caterpillar.  I have gotten stung by a puss caterpillar and it hurts badly.  Could be the reference is to the sting of a puss caterpillar and it hurts like the devil.

[RJH57]

excerpts from the "Jungvolk" Preface by its true author Donald Gregory; It's NOT a first-person account! see URL below

"I wanted to turn Will's notes into a book that would be readable... and maybe even a bit entertaining... so a portion of this book IS MY INTERPRETATION and REWRITING of his notes ..."

and of course what can be more entertaining  than a silly German phrase like  "Gabelschwanz Teuffel" (with the possible exception of "I know nuffink!" from TV's Hogan's Heroes POW documentaries  {cough}{hack}) which just rolls off the tongue, creating an image of superior American aviation technology intimidating and terrifying the German Luftwaffe and thereby swelling the breast of every red-blooded American patriot.

regarding Martin Caidin,  I readily acknowledge that he did NOT come up  with "Gabelschwanz Teuffel", LIFE magazine apparently invented it in 1943 and it's been used by just about every journalist, author and ghost writer since then when writing about the P-38.  The P-38's (and the F4-U Corsair's) wartime achievements (especially in the Pacific Theatre) do not need to be enhanced  with ridiculous monikers by hack writers- entertaining as they might be to some (e.g. "The Whistling Gabelschwanz Teuffel of Death")  . 

https://books.google.com/books?id=kxxCpQ-hV9QC&pg=PP7&lpg=PP7&dq=Jungvolk+%2B+Gehlen   

[Delirium]

Guys, if you want to dispute an item in a reference, you need to find a reference that refutes it.

What are you looking for? A statement from Goering that states, "We never used the forked tailed devil phase." ? In that case, I want you to find evidence that German aviators didn't call the P38 'the big plane that knocked up my sister and groped my wife'.

With all due respect, you can't have it both ways, Brooke.

[oboe]

Just discovered another reference to the "Fork-Tailed Devil" term.
 
This 1943 Signal Corp film on the P-38 "Angel in Overalls" claims that Germans referred to the P-38 the "Gabelschwanz Teufel", that its rate of climb was 4,000 fpm, that its top speed was secret but better than 425 mph, and that it can dive faster than the speed of sound!(time marker 8:59).



Definitely propaganda, made for Home Front consumption, but still interesting to watch.

<S>

[bustr]

Would it be easier to approach this from the position of researching the US PR fabrications from WW2 to keep the home front moral up? All of those films for public consumption have exaggerated descriptive language. You read the same in public periodicals.

What did the German military call the spitfire, typhoon, P47 and P51 other than their military designations? From what I could find, Whispering and Whistling Death monikers were given by the allied side to those aircraft as PR. What pejorative monikers do we really know were in use by the Luft pilots for allied fighters? That is a window into the macro cultural language use at the time, and the micro culture usage specifically to the German military.

Just like US language lingo of the 40's is different from current lingo and writing style. You see this just by translating ww2 german manuals using modern german -> english translators.

We are arguing about something as problematical as the origin of "Teufel-brigade".

While carrying out beachhead operations at Anzio, legend has it that a member of the Force uncovered the journal of a German lieutenant from the Herman Goering Division. The journal contained the following entry: "The Black Devils are all around us every time we come into the line. We never hear them come." This legend was never verified as fact by any member of the brigade; however, the force was known as the Black Devils and as the Devil's Brigade

[Brooke]

You guys wouldn't accept me saying "fork-tailed devil" is fine because I think so.  You would want me to give references that show:
-- It was used in 1943 when the P-38 came out.
-- That Germans used the term.

I did that, but you guys don't like my references.

OK, but you can't stand on your dislike of them as evidence that they are wrong, and examples of how something else in them is wrong is not very good evidence either.  Why?  Because your like or dislike of references is irrelevant, and because if a book says "X is red" and "Bob lives in Ohio", and you find that Bob doesn't live in Ohio, it doesn't provide any information about whether or not X is red.

So, "what am I looking for"?

I don't care if you do it or not, but if you want to change my mind, you need references and evidence strong enough to override the current references and evidence -- not feelings and not debate of some separate point, like whether or not Bob lives in Ohio.

I already fully understand that the 3 references I posted are not sufficient evidence for you.  I accept that.

[Arlo]

[Devil 505]

Bob Neuenherz?

[Arlo]

Bob Neuenherz?

I see what you did there. 

[GScholz]

You guys wouldn't accept me saying "fork-tailed devil" is fine because I think so.

Brooke, you can call the P-38 anything you want. No one is stopping you. No one has the right to stop you.

[Mister Fork]

To Brooke's credit, history is always written by the victors.  Point in fact, I thought the devil term was reference to Japanese fighter pilots, not German.  In retrospect, they called it "two planes, one pilot".

I consider myself an amateur historian, like an amateur astronomer. I'm about the facts. What do we know. What are the sources. What do other sources say that contradict or support. And can anyone else validate or dispute the findings (which is actually a good thing). Similar to the scientific method of research.

Armchair historians are however, more about speculation, hypothesis, insight, and theory, rarely sticking to the facts. (Yes, that is an acronmyn for something. s.h...) 

So, who are armchair historians, and who are amateur historians?

[Brooke]

You guys wouldn't accept me saying "fork-tailed devil" is fine because I think so.

Brooke, you can call the P-38 anything you want. No one is stopping you. No one has the right to stop you.

Let me rephrase.  You guys wouldn't accept me claiming that the following is accurate because I think so:  Caidin didn't invent the term "fork-tailed devil" or "gabelshwanz teufel", and one or more WWII Germans did call the P-38 a "gableshwanz teufel".