What is the trick to bnz?

[Wolf]

Hi guys. I'm more of a turnfighter and have a lot of experience flying midwar planes. I recently starting trying out the German iron and its a lot different than the Spitfires and c205s I'm more comfortable in. What is the trick to being good in something like a Ta 152? I assume its BNZ. Ive seen some really impressive videos on youtube of what can be done with the 190s and the Ta 152, but I've never seen anyone explain what theyre doing or how to make it work.

Is there anywhere I can read about this? Are there any pointers in general I can follow?

[Ack-Ack]

You're going to get a lot of different answers but keep in mind that most in here really don't know how to use proper BnZ tactics. 

Most players in this game extend too far when they make their BnZ attacks, not knowing that the purpose of using BnZ tactics is to make the target burn their energy (by making the target break) when avoiding the attacker's BnZ pass and extend for a considerable distance before setting up and repeating their attack.  By extending too far, this allows the target to regain some of the altitude and energy lost while avoiding the attack.

In proper BnZ attacks, the attacker shouldn't extend beyond 2k before making another attack.  The goal is to "tap dance" on the target's head, forcing them to make repeated break turns and burning their energy, setting up the target to be either in a position where they are slow and unable to avoid the attacker's BnZ pass or the attacker "pushes" the target to the deck, where the target has a much more difficult time avoiding subsequent attacks.

It is vital that as the attacker, you do not lose patience when you are making your attacks and out of frustration and try to follow the target into the break turn for a quick deflection shot.

[Wiley]

What Ack Ack said.

When it comes to gunnery in BnZ, ideally you want to fly to where they're going to be, and be unloaded (no stick/rudder inputs) when you fire.  Basically put a bullet stream out in front of them for them to fly into.  Shooting while pulling for lead can work, but unloaded is preferable.

Also watch how they break turn.  You'd be surprised how many people do the same thing repeatedly when they avoid a gunnery pass.

Wiley.

[morfiend]

Ack and Wiley make excellent points!

  I would suggest you learn the airframe,become proficient with BFM,practice stalls and recoveries and practice flying as slow as you can.

  These with the advice already given you set you well on your way!



   

[Kingpin]

Very good tips here already!  I will elaborate on a few things off the top of my head.

Tip #1: Try to position yourself above your enemy before attacking. 

Too often I see BnZ attackers (someone with a big energy advantage) dive down to the level of their target from 3K or more away to chase them down.  They are then attacking only with a speed advantage and no real positional advantage.  They are also expending a good amount of potential energy just getting to the enemy rather than using it maintain both an energy and positional advantage (above the enemy).  If you can be patient and fly to where you are above the enemy (or at least inside their turn radius) first before attacking, you will accomplish several things:

1) Your vertical attack will get on the enemy faster, giving the enemy less time to react
2) Regardless of which direction the enemy turns, you can simply roll to change direction quickly and easily position for lead pursuit and a shot attempt
3) Your enemy will have a harder time pulling nose to nose for a HO (as they will need to pull up and lose energy to HO you)

Tip #2: Often a defensive enemy will just try to pull his nose up to you to HO.  You will need to recognize when your enemy is pulling up to meet you nose on.  When you see them pulling up for the HO, simply start a spiral climb to keep the enemy nose-up and wait for them to be near stall -- essentially converting your attack into a rope.  Some aircraft regain E quickly, so be on the lookout for the nose up HO from that defender more than once (if you don't rope him and kill him the first time).  As Wiley said, usually what a player tries once, they will do again, so anticipate the same move more than once.

Tip #3: Become good at using the high-yo-yo.  When an enemy makes a break turn to defeat your BnZ shot attempt, the high-yo-yo is a good choice to 1) climb back above the enemy while 2) keeping them in view and 3) positioning you quickly make another attack -- keeping the pressure on just as has been suggested above.

You don't need to push for a shot every attack, as the objective is to get them to turn, lose altitude and burn energy so you can attack them again while they have less and less energy.  Using the high-yo-yo aggressively is very good for this. Often my first attack is not even about getting a shot, it is about sizing up their energy and how they react so I can maneuver accordingly for the next attack.

Tip #4: You can always get with a Trainer in the Training Arena and BnZ us while we give you tips.  This might be the fastest way to learn a good feel for some of the items mentioned above.

<S>
Kingpin

 

[TequilaChaser]

Ack Ack pretty much nailed it

and Wiley, Morfiend, Kingpin had some other great points!

regarding AckAck's recommending to keep your extensions/reversals to 2.0 K or less is very important while attempting to BNZ your target! I would even say if you can learn to control your E management, to cut the extension down closer to 1.5 K then reverse to do as was posted "keep repeatedly tapping on their head", making them burn up their E, as well as forcing them into making a mistake, whether mental or a maneuver mistake....

Great thread - great replies to the OP!

TC

[Wiley]

One more thing I feel is worth mentioning.  All of the above is dead on.  The one thing we haven't addressed is what the other guy's generally going to try to do to defend against it.

Many people will try to dive out on you.  My personal favorite tactic in that case is dive to follow them at a shallower angle and stay over top of them.  They will run out of air and when they get to the deck and slow down, and you will have the alt and E to run them down and be above them when you get there.  Watch out for the friendly they might be dragging you to.

Many will try to get out from under you and be attempting to climb gradually as they move away from you.  What they're trying to do here is get their E state closer to yours.  You need to watch out for that as they get closer in alt and speed to you, they have more options.

The third thing that the climbing away is usually leading toward is a barrel roll defense.  It is best done when their E state is just a little bit lower than yours.  If you search in this forum for barrel roll defense you'll find plenty of excellent explanations.  The barrel roll defense is generally the way people will kill you when you BnZ them.  If you have a large speed advantage they generally can't get guns on you before you get out of range, but keep an eye on how they're moving and try to stay away from the sharp end if possible until you're 800 out or more.

The other thing to bear in mind is be patient.  If you're not set up in a way that you feel your next pass is a really good kill opportunity, don't push for it.  You're better off doing another high yo to set him up better and bleed more of his E.  Really, that's what a BnZ fight is all about.  The attacker on top is trying not to let the defender's E state get too close to his, and the defender is trying to equalize E.  If you keep that in mind, you'll see what they're trying to do and can adjust what you're doing to counter it.  If he's moving away from you, he's generally working it to his advantage.  You want to stay on top of him as much as possible.

A lot of the time, when I come in on a guy with an alt advantage, my first couple passes are only there to make him bleed his E.  I'm working on making him wiggle while I conserve my E, so that on the third or fourth pass, he's got fewer options and I have the setup I want.  This plays back into the "don't extend too far and give him too much time to regain E" portion of the discussion above.

Wiley.

[Mongoose]

 My problem when I BNZ is I end up in a turn fight.   I get target fixated and forget to pull back up. 

[Rolex]

My problem when I BNZ is I end up in a turn fight.   I get target fixated and forget to pull back up.

This is not uncommon and usually results in frustration and child support.

[Puma44]

Have a working knowledge of how to use your lift vector can also be quite effective. It's also a basic skill set to have in your BFM toolkit.

[JunkyII]

Tip #2: Often a defensive enemy will just try to pull his nose up to you to HO.  You will need to recognize when your enemy is pulling up to meet you nose on.  When you see them pulling up for the HO, simply start a spiral climb to keep the enemy nose-up and wait for them to be near stall -- essentially converting your attack into a rope.  Some aircraft regain E quickly, so be on the lookout for the nose up HO from that defender more than once (if you don't rope him and kill him the first time).  As Wiley said, usually what a player tries once, they will do again, so anticipate the same move more than once.

I think it should be said that if your using the tactic of pulling vertical to HO in your defensive flying....you might want to get some training on defensive flying.


Think all these tips are great(never thought about unloaded shooting vs loaded...maybe thats why i suck at aim) will have to use some myself. One thing I will say as the person getting BnZed...there is a fine line in BnZ between being too aggressive, which will get you killed by the person you are BnZing and being too timid and getting killed by his friend who came in to help him.

You can't let your prey reset his airspeed without him losing a lot of altitude.  Anytime you give me a moment to go level and regain airspeed while you come back over the top...your killing yourself because we are getting closer to CO E which is the goal of defensive flying...get back to equal terms with your enemy or kill them on a reverse. But at the same time if you come in too aggressive I will just pitch nose down and have you follow me in a dive until we get closer to co E...end state met co e.

Find the fine line, your opponent is going to show you it with the attitude of their plane...every situation is different so you have to be able to know when they need E, when they have too much, when they are blowing it off, when they are hiding it (loaded turns) and how you need to position your plane in order to control the fight through yo yos

[bustr]

Today in the MA with the lower population you also need to worry about your con's friends. Very often we find our BnZ opportunities as the fighter CAP over a base with a carpet of red guys milling around praying you blow your E in your BnZ and allow them to wolf pack you. It gets worse if you are alone or only have 2-3 friendlies trying to accomplish the same thing while not distracting the pack very efficiently. Their goal like yours is BnZ(picking) one of the red guys out of the pack and surviving.

You need to learn classic BnZ in 1v1 terms to have the primary tool for any variations on BnZ. Then make a date with KingPin to tighten up your gunnery. 

Then you need to be trained how to extend that into 1 V many which is the more likely scenario you will encounter each day in the MA. You will find BnZ 1 v many has a broader pallet of nuances you need to understand to cut your prey out of the herd and survive. All the time you are focused on your one kill, the rest of the herd is working at gaining a better E state with you as a group. The fewer friendlies operating over that herd doing the same thing independently of you, the greater your chances of getting caught. If the friendlies seem to not want to work together, you may see a key to surviving. One of them is usually taking advantage of the others by making them his bait. It's usually a subtle thing but, you will see it if you are willing to look.

As bad as it sounds, learning how to recognize those players and observing their tactics will teach you a lot about surviving and landing kills with 1 v many BnZ in the MA. Also, keep an eye out for those players from the other side while you are part of the herd on the deck and watch how they perform their 1 v many BnZ.     

[Randy1]

My problem when I BNZ is I end up in a turn fight.   I get target fixated and forget to pull back up.

Mongoose, try to recover as much E as you can by unloading your control inputs for as long as you can before the next attack and don't loose sight of the attacker. 

[Ack-Ack]

Mongoose, try to recover as much E as you can by unloading your control inputs for as long as you can before the next attack and don't loose sight of the attacker.

The only problem with that is to unload your aircraft, you have to dive and you're then just putting yourself into a corner as you're helping the attacker to push you to the deck.

[FLS]

The only problem with that is to unload your aircraft, you have to dive and you're then just putting yourself into a corner as you're helping the attacker to push you to the deck.

You can unload to reduce drag in a zoom climb, you only need to dive to unload and accelerate.