Author Topic: The Merge  (Read 5484 times)

Offline Wiley

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The Merge
« on: July 25, 2016, 11:07:10 AM »
Hi guys.  I think I finally have a specific question on what I need help with.  Went into Sat KOTH this week and had a ball, but it reminded me of something I'd noticed the time before as well, and was hoping I might be able to find someone to help me tune up my merge.

My standard M.O. when I am co-e 1v1 is to work to get an alt advantage.  Most of how I work things is towards that end, and I generally do alright at it.

With the 6k alt cap in KOTH, that doesn't work.  If I did my normal schtick, I'd bust the cloud layer all the time.  So what I'd like to try to figure out is, what other options do I have on the merge, and how do I make it work?  If that makes sense.  I'm planning to be on tonight likely around 7 or 8 Eastern if anyone's available.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2016, 11:23:15 AM »
With the alt cap, you have to work a quick merge and attempt to get inside their emmilmann or turn. Because you don't have to worry about getting roped, the person who gets inside on the first Emmilmann typically has a better chance at winning. In Koth, it's better to start the merge around 3K so you have the ability to take the fight vertical without going over the cap. You can either do a quick horizontal turn and then pull up into their merge, this works sometimes, but is hard to perform against really good opponents who do a direct emmilmann sharply. You can do a sharp spiral climb merge to which ever way the torque rolls the plane, if you don't have a good rolling plane. Continue to use the torque as you go into the second climb or turn. If you do have a good rolling plane, i think it's best to do a direct emmilmann and use the rolls rate to change position at the top to get you in a good position for the next Emmilmann or spiral climb, or horizontal turn. If you can get inside their emmilmann, you have a good chance at winning if they go for a rope merge. You can slow down your merge speed by cutting a little bit of throttle, you can use rudder to help you get the nose over or get the nose inward, more quickly as you come around from the spiral climb Emmilmann. Work on doing sharp emmilmanns as hard as you can. The key is to set you up for another vertical maneuver that you can use to gain the advantage. When you roll over on the opponent at the top of the second emmilann, cut throttle if you are rolling against the torque, and get a notch or 2 of flaps out if you can. It can be a game changer if you can roll over sharply after the second merge.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 11:34:33 AM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline Wiley

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2016, 11:33:36 AM »
Good points, Violator.  I guess I didn't quite articulate the precise situation I have trouble with.  I understand fighting upwards fairly well, but in the KOTH, I'm REALLY not super keen about trying to merge at 3k and giving someone like Rudeboi or Bruv a 3k alt advantage to start the fight.

The situation I am having trouble with is when the two of you are starting near the alt cap at speed.  Can't Immelman from there, can't spiral climb.  Now what?

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2016, 11:34:01 AM »
Hey Wiley, when I'm participating in KOTH, I enter my engagement with enough room that I can possibly do anywhere from 1 to maybe even 3 vertical immeleman maneuvers in succession...

Most times this is at the initial "Fights On" call, where I'm approaching my first opponent, usually I will be flying level at around 5K All and once I spot their dot or icon, I will start diving (dive angle being dependent to what my opponent is doing) and also trying to gain horizontal separation as well as vertical separation....most times the opponent will dive as well, but I want to be lower than them and off to one side or the other...at around 1.5k to 1.2k out, I begin my turn into them trying for passing them right at the 3-9 line or just behind crossing their flight path 90 degrees off to gain an angles advantage....

Now, depending on the plane type, determines how much alt to be below the 6k alt cap, yet still be able to pull off a double or triple immel....sometimes you might have to go more diagonally on the last one to stay under the cap...

Hope this helps..... not sure when I'll be on, but don't mind helping you with this if you need me to.... btw fun fights in KOTH the other day <§>

TC
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2016, 11:40:28 AM »
Good points, Violator.  I guess I didn't quite articulate the precise situation I have trouble with.  I understand fighting upwards fairly well, but in the KOTH, I'm REALLY not super keen about trying to merge at 3k and giving someone like Rudeboi or Bruv a 3k alt advantage to start the fight.

The situation I am having trouble with is when the two of you are starting near the alt cap at speed.  Can't Immelman from there, can't spiral climb.  Now what?

Wiley.

So you dove and they stayed high?

or did they come in on / toward you after you had just recently finished off someone and are caught an alt disadvantage?

TC
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Wiley

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2016, 11:45:36 AM »
So you dove and they stayed high?

or did they come in on / toward you after you had just recently finished off someone and are caught an alt disadvantage?

TC

What I'm talking about is first fight after fights on.

Everybody's around 5k or up.  The other guy is staying high.  It just seems to me a bad decision to get low to set up to do an Immelman if he keeps his alt.  Is that wrong thinking?  Just seems to me if he keeps his alt, what will happen after I Immelman is, I'm now slow, and he's still at that alt with speed.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2016, 11:46:17 AM »
If you are both high, you can do a horizontal turn and try to get inside their turn first. If that is not working you can turn the nose down, do a sharp slip S, then pull up into a vertical roll as they turn down on you. This is risky, but if performed right, you can do a BRD over the top, sorta like what you would do in a defense situation. This has helped me get out of trouble and  reset the fight into a vertical rolling scissors.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2016, 11:50:52 AM »
If you are both high, you can do a horizontal turn and try to get inside their turn first. If that is not working you can turn the nose down, do a sharp slip S, then pull up into a vertical roll as they turn down on you. This is risky, but if performed right, you can do a BRD over the top, sorta like what you would do in a defense situation. This has helped me get out of trouble and  reset the fight into a vertical rolling scissors.

I think I'm starting to see a bit of the light.  Basically in this situation you've got to prioritize the angle moreso than the E advantage?  At least at first?

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2016, 11:51:28 AM »
What I'm talking about is first fight after fights on.

Everybody's around 5k or up.  The other guy is staying high.  It just seems to me a bad decision to get low to set up to do an Immelman if he keeps his alt.  Is that wrong thinking?  Just seems to me if he keeps his alt, what will happen after I Immelman is, I'm now slow, and he's still at that alt with speed.

Wiley.

They cannot go higher. So their speed and E is actually a disadvantage. If you come up under them and have the E to reach them, they are in trouble because they cannot use that E to go higher and rope you. It's easier to get a shot opportunity when they push down to avoid your shots. Typically, unless you are going under 300, you shouldn't get roped if you are over 3K. If you are on the deck, I wouldn't then. people who start rights at the top of the cap are usually at a disadvantage.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2016, 11:53:21 AM »
If you both come in at/near the same alt, you should try to at least gain some horizontal separation before you merge, to allow yourself some room to maneuver for angles...

Fighting Bruv in a horizontal turn fight is like fighting Badboy, Bighorn, batfink, etc.... they work at wearing you down and wearing your E down....

As for them staying high while you dive, with enough practice, you will be able to time it to where you can fly right on to their "six".... I actually got possibly 2 or 3 KOTH films of this exact situation from either this past Friday or Saturday KOTH events...

TC


"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2016, 11:56:19 AM »
I think I'm starting to see a bit of the light.  Basically in this situation you've got to prioritize the angle moreso than the E advantage?  At least at first?

Wiley.

That is correct. Angles are extremely important in gaining the advantage at any point of the fight. Use your ailerons to set the degree of the angle, then use vertical (up or down) to utilize that angle before you begin the roll. Your rudder will help you get the nose down and in position. You have to be the judge to decide how many G's you need to pull.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 11:58:02 AM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2016, 11:58:01 AM »
They cannot go higher. So their speed and E is actually a disadvantage. If you come up under them and have the E to reach them, they are in trouble because they cannot use that E to go higher and rope you. It's easier to get a shot opportunity when they push down to avoid your shots. Typically, unless you are going under 300, you shouldn't get roped if you are over 3K. If you are on the deck, I wouldn't then. people who start rights at the top of the cap are usually at a disadvantage.

^
^
^ this.... good post, Violator

Edit: this will work against the majority of players, but remember their are a few that can evade this... heck, Violator is one of them, hey


TC
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 12:03:01 PM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Wiley

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2016, 11:58:16 AM »
Ok...  Thanks gents.  I think I'm starting to see how it applies now.  Coming over the top of that vertical maneuver basically means I'm in a better turning position if he's kept his E because he's faster now.

That makes a bunch of sense now.  Now it's just a matter of figuring out how to apply the logic in maneuvers.

Thanks guys!

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline FLS

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2016, 12:00:08 PM »
Hi guys.  I think I finally have a specific question on what I need help with.  Went into Sat KOTH this week and had a ball, but it reminded me of something I'd noticed the time before as well, and was hoping I might be able to find someone to help me tune up my merge.

My standard M.O. when I am co-e 1v1 is to work to get an alt advantage.  Most of how I work things is towards that end, and I generally do alright at it.

With the 6k alt cap in KOTH, that doesn't work.  If I did my normal schtick, I'd bust the cloud layer all the time.  So what I'd like to try to figure out is, what other options do I have on the merge, and how do I make it work?  If that makes sense.  I'm planning to be on tonight likely around 7 or 8 Eastern if anyone's available.

Wiley.

Your options on the alt cap merge are best sustained level turn at max alt while assessing the bandit or diving and using your increased speed to max turn, preferably a climbing max turn while assessing the bandit.

Your merge is likely above corner speed so a descending turn will be slow turn rate and wide radius and prone to blackout. A climbing turn will get you to corner speed faster for your best turn but mind the bandit, you have to see if they're blowing energy to out-turn you or building an advantage with an easy turn above you. You can match their choice or bet one approach against the other.

Offline Zoney

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Re: The Merge
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2016, 12:35:54 PM »
Great information, I'm taking notes.
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