Author Topic: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom  (Read 3085 times)

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2016, 04:44:10 PM »
Yes it has but no you don't belive science?
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2016, 05:07:11 PM »
I would not use the word believe about science, its not a matter of personal opinions. If you dont "believe" what science tells you then you are simply wrong.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline Brooke

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2016, 11:37:19 PM »
Actually, even science historically has had huge amounts of personal opinion, belief, and group think mixed in.  Eventually, people figure things out, but the world goes through periods where accepted science is far wrong by later standards:  germ theory, evolution, plate tectonics, planetary orbits, quantum mechanics, to name just a few, and even very modern ones (such as the idea that eating fat increases your cholesterol, which is true for rabbits but, as it turns out, not true for humans).

Science does seem to progress eventually to greater truths, though.

Offline NatCigg

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2016, 06:47:29 AM »
Good point Brooke.  The term science is over used as a modern day religion.  Praise science.  Unfortunately the popular assumption is based on belief in scientists.  This is a severe problem when people claim knowledge when in fact it is a guess.  A best guess.  Praise science.  While the scientists opinion can be intriguing, when the public or politicians grab it...praise science, nobody can stop the human wave....must garner more science.  Praise science.  :old:

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2016, 09:45:32 AM »
I would not use the word believe about science, its not a matter of personal opinions. If you dont "believe" what science tells you then you are simply wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-life_of_knowledge

The half-life of knowledge or half-life of facts is the amount of time that has to elapse before half of the knowledge or facts in a particular area is superseded or shown to be untrue. These coined terms belong to the field of quantitative analysis of science known as scientometrics.

These ideas of half-life applied to different fields differ from the concept of half-life in physics in that there is no guarantee that the knowledge or facts in areas of study are declining exponentially. It is unclear that there is any way to establish what constitutes "knowledge" in a particular area, as opposed to mere opinion or theory.

Because scientific knowledge is growing by a factor of ten every 50 years, this means that half of what scientists may have known about a particular subject will be wrong or obsolete in 45 years.

An engineering degree went from having a half life of 35 years in ca. 1930 to about 10 years in 1960.

Donald Hebb estimated the half-life of psychology to be five years.
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Offline OldNitro

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2016, 09:49:47 AM »
Actually, even science historically has had huge amounts of personal opinion, belief, and group think mixed in.  Eventually, people figure things out, but the world goes through periods where accepted science is far wrong by later standards:  germ theory, evolution, plate tectonics, planetary orbits, quantum mechanics, to name just a few, and even very modern ones (such as the idea that eating fat increases your cholesterol, which is true for rabbits but, as it turns out, not true for humans).

Science does seem to progress eventually to greater truths, though.

I agree! And it is also worth noting, that many scientists, and their "scientific facts and opinions", can be purchased for $$$$! The corporations do it all the time!

Offline Zimme83

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2016, 11:13:22 AM »
Actually, even science historically has had huge amounts of personal opinion, belief, and group think mixed in.  Eventually, people figure things out, but the world goes through periods where accepted science is far wrong by later standards:  germ theory, evolution, plate tectonics, planetary orbits, quantum mechanics, to name just a few, and even very modern ones (such as the idea that eating fat increases your cholesterol, which is true for rabbits but, as it turns out, not true for humans).

Science does seem to progress eventually to greater truths, though.

True, and there is unfortunately hard to avoid it since there are still humans involved. But still, even if the road to knowledge isnt straight, it still leads towards greater truths as you said. We have no other way than science to find out how things work, and it would be dangerous if we tried to replace it, science is still better than having people guess based on their personal opinions.

We need to be open minded enough to admit that we dont know everything, and that new data can disprove what we know today. But we still cannot refuse to believe science just because we doesnt like what it tells us. Gallileo for ex was put under house arrest for life because people didnt like his claims that the Earth rotates around the sun..
If you want to dispute scientific findings, the way to do it is by presenting objective facts that disprove the earlier findings, not by claiming that the scientist "have an agenda" or similar arguments (unless of course there is evidence to support such claims).

When it comes to global warming i only know that when NASA, ESA and their counterparts in a lot of other countries says that Global warming caused by human activity is real then i cannot dispute it unless i can back it up with some really good evidence, and since i cannot do that i just have to assume that they know what they are talking about. I also happens to study at a university that does a lot of research on the atmosphere and climate and I have still not met a professor or anyone with any kind of authority on the subject that doesnt think global warming is real. And since they are some really smart guys it would be both ignorant and stupid of me to claim that they are wrong just because i want them to...

As far as we know today everything points towards a) Global warming is happening and b) its mainly caused by human activity. There are of course a lot we doesn't know but until the present findings are disproved by new scientific data we simply have to assume that what we know today is the truth.

And no - no one likes global warming and almost no one will make money on it, it will have a huge negative impact on our way of living and on our society. But that is no reason to deny it. We can hope for the best but we still have to plan for the worst..
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline NatCigg

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2016, 11:57:16 AM »
Good science has truth.  It is the extrapolation on the data that is subjective.  Under the guise of science we see opinion spread as truth.  Using truth in place of theory is dangerous.

Global climate models are a great tool but they are not truth, they are wrong.  Same as the big bang is wrong.  In climate science there is truth in data, truth that humans are polluting and altering climate related factors.  Also, the economy surrounding global warming science has to be huge.  I would like to see how many use it to put food on the table.

Offline Zoney

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2016, 01:19:00 PM »


As far as we know today everything points towards a) Global warming is happening and b) its mainly caused by human activity.




No.  Absolutely not.

Is it accelerated/changed by human activity, yes.

Our (human) activity is minimal compared to the heat generated by the sun, and the natural heat from the Earths core under tremendous pressure.
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Offline ghi

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2016, 06:15:24 PM »
Opps, what a Costco size screenshot i uploaded :(  ;  sorry , first time i see it on my desktop, it looked smaller on my phone; :bolt:


No.  Absolutely not.

Is it accelerated/changed by human activity, yes.

Our (human) activity is minimal compared to the heat generated by the sun, and the natural heat from the Earths core under tremendous pressure.

 Out of all the damaging human activities, i believe in Jesse Ventura's HAARP geoengineering / mind control conspiracy  :rock; awesome navy seal, governor, and wrestler dweeb(  sure hurt his head doing last one).
 The antennas  are transmitting strong radio signals capable to warm up, ionize  and increase density of the upper layers of atmosphere ahead of incoming Russian icbms causing them to slow down before the re-entry and fall in our heads here in Canada.  :(     
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x22hoz1_conspiracy-theory-with-jesse-ventura-haarp_news
  .
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 06:46:36 PM by ghi »

Offline Brooke

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2016, 07:23:03 PM »
We have no other way than science to find out how things work

As a scientist myself (well, I mostly do business today, but my background is science), I completely agree with you that the scientific method is the way to figure things out.

Quote
When it comes to global warming i only know that when NASA, ESA and their counterparts in a lot of other countries says that Global warming caused by human activity is real then i cannot dispute it unless i can back it up with some really good evidence, and since i cannot do that i just have to assume that they know what they are talking about.

It doesn't sound unreasonable that more CO2 in the air would increase temperatures.  However, it also isn't unreasonable to very skeptical of climate models.  Much of my scientific background is physics, scientific modelling, and financial modelling.  Models that contain a multitude of adjustable parameters can be made to fit historical data very well yet be horrible at predicting future results.  I am highly skeptical of complicated models of complicated systems.

The other things that raise my level of skepticism:
-- I remember the dire warnings about acid rain.
-- When I see a group-think dynamic with suppression of dissent, or science that transmutes nearly into a religious crusade, I become suspicious.  Global warming has that in spades.
-- Few consider that the earth went through periods of much greater atmospheric CO2 than we have now or are extrapolated to have, yet life flourished during those times.
-- Few consider that dire consequences of warming are model predictions, yet periodic ice ages are much-more-solidly known to have occurred many times throughout history.  An ice age would be drastically more ruinous to human civilization than warming.  Might it be that some warming can delay, offset, or eliminate the next ice age, in which case it would actually be a savior of mankind?  It might be as plausible as the dire predictions of bad aspects of warming.

Quote
We can hope for the best but we still have to plan for the worst..

You can't often operate by planning for the worst.  If you planned for the worst in all things, you would not drive a car, have children, have pets, meet friends, drink beer, eat pizza, swim, play a sport, go out in the sun, etc.  There is a potentially gigantic opportunity cost to operating as if the worst is going to happen.

Put another way, you've got $3 trillion to spend.  Which of these is best for mankind?
1.  Spend it on reducing CO2 emissions faster than would otherwise happen through unforced adoption of non-CO2-producing power sources.
2.  Spend it on a way to preclude an ice age (as ice ages have wiped out lots of life in the past).
3.  Spend it on asteroid defense for the planet (as asteroids have wiped out life a few times).
4.  Let free markets spend it (and get advancement of various things, some you might consider not useful, but some definitely will be in healthcare, computers, food production, entertainment, science, increased standard of living for the undeveloped world, etc.).
5.  Give it to your pal Brooke, who will put it to excellent use for the betterment of mankind.
6.  Spend it on human colonization of space (to protect our species and spread sentient life).
7.  The large number of other possibilities.

I like #5 most, with #6 a close second, and #4 third.

Offline Zoney

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2016, 10:46:01 AM »
Opps, what a Costco size screenshot i uploaded :(  ;  sorry , first time i see it on my desktop, it looked smaller on my phone; :bolt:

 Out of all the damaging human activities, i believe in Jesse Ventura's HAARP geoengineering / mind control conspiracy  :rock; awesome navy seal, governor, and wrestler dweeb(  sure hurt his head doing last one).
 The antennas  are transmitting strong radio signals capable to warm up, ionize  and increase density of the upper layers of atmosphere ahead of incoming Russian icbms causing them to slow down before the re-entry and fall in our heads here in Canada.  :(     
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x22hoz1_conspiracy-theory-with-jesse-ventura-haarp_news
  .

This is why I like you GHI.  Reality and the laws of physics have no possible chance of thwarting your paranoia.  <S>
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2016, 10:59:55 AM »
I have no trouble believing atmospheric CO2 is influenced by human activity.

What I am skeptical of is the belief we can reverse it.

Wiley.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #58 on: December 23, 2016, 11:24:07 AM »
As a scientist myself (well, I mostly do business today, but my background is science), I completely agree with you that the scientific method is the way to figure things out.

It doesn't sound unreasonable that more CO2 in the air would increase temperatures.  However, it also isn't unreasonable to very skeptical of climate models.  Much of my scientific background is physics, scientific modelling, and financial modelling.  Models that contain a multitude of adjustable parameters can be made to fit historical data very well yet be horrible at predicting future results.  I am highly skeptical of complicated models of complicated systems.

The other things that raise my level of skepticism:
-- I remember the dire warnings about acid rain.
-- When I see a group-think dynamic with suppression of dissent, or science that transmutes nearly into a religious crusade, I become suspicious.  Global warming has that in spades.
-- Few consider that the earth went through periods of much greater atmospheric CO2 than we have now or are extrapolated to have, yet life flourished during those times.
-- Few consider that dire consequences of warming are model predictions, yet periodic ice ages are much-more-solidly known to have occurred many times throughout history.  An ice age would be drastically more ruinous to human civilization than warming.  Might it be that some warming can delay, offset, or eliminate the next ice age, in which case it would actually be a savior of mankind?  It might be as plausible as the dire predictions of bad aspects of warming.

You can't often operate by planning for the worst.  If you planned for the worst in all things, you would not drive a car, have children, have pets, meet friends, drink beer, eat pizza, swim, play a sport, go out in the sun, etc.  There is a potentially gigantic opportunity cost to operating as if the worst is going to happen.

Put another way, you've got $3 trillion to spend.  Which of these is best for mankind?
1.  Spend it on reducing CO2 emissions faster than would otherwise happen through unforced adoption of non-CO2-producing power sources.
2.  Spend it on a way to preclude an ice age (as ice ages have wiped out lots of life in the past).
3.  Spend it on asteroid defense for the planet (as asteroids have wiped out life a few times).
4.  Let free markets spend it (and get advancement of various things, some you might consider not useful, but some definitely will be in healthcare, computers, food production, entertainment, science, increased standard of living for the undeveloped world, etc.).
5.  Give it to your pal Brooke, who will put it to excellent use for the betterment of mankind.
6.  Spend it on human colonization of space (to protect our species and spread sentient life).
7.  The large number of other possibilities.

I like #5 most, with #6 a close second, and #4 third.

#5 is ok if i get let a share, im not a greedy man so a trillion would be ok, #6 is also always a good option.


''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline NatCigg

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Re: Polar vortex,ice storm,....doom
« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2016, 11:27:09 AM »
History shows life uses and converts co2 to stone.  :old:  this long after we are gone?  :bolt: