Author Topic: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom  (Read 16598 times)

Offline DaveBB

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #150 on: January 20, 2017, 04:23:49 PM »
I remember reading that during mock dogfights that pilots could easily tell the F-14's energy state just by looking at the position of the wings.  So savvy F-14 pilots would manually change the position of the wings instead of setting it to "auto".  Guess it maneuvered decently in delta configuration too (large part of lift was produced by the body of the aircraft iirc).

There is a great book on one of the last F-14 squadrons called "Black Aces High".  Details their combat actions during the 99 Serbian air war. 
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline Zimme83

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #151 on: January 20, 2017, 04:24:36 PM »
At the cost of increased weight and increased complexity of course. And since the swept wing fighters were relatively short lived (in terms of when they were designed and produced) I guess that in the end it wasnt worth that cost.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #152 on: January 20, 2017, 04:41:53 PM »
It was worth it at the time, but advances in aerodynamic design and engine power has made swing-wing obsolete. However... Shape changing aircraft may see a revival in the not so distant future.

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-successfully-tests-shape-changing-wing-for-next-generation-aviation
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #153 on: January 20, 2017, 05:01:55 PM »
Having read all this, I still have concerns about a Delta style wings performance when taking off from a treadmill.  Can it be done or will excessive drag combined with the treadmill speed negate the vortices lift benefits?

Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #154 on: January 20, 2017, 05:31:12 PM »
I remember reading that during mock dogfights that pilots could easily tell the F-14's energy state just by looking at the position of the wings.  So savvy F-14 pilots would manually change the position of the wings instead of setting it to "auto".  Guess it maneuvered decently in delta configuration too (large part of lift was produced by the body of the aircraft iirc).

There is a great book on one of the last F-14 squadrons called "Black Aces High".  Details their combat actions during the 99 Serbian air war. 

We in the F-106 were also savvy when flying against F-14s.  We had a data link UHF receiver that could be used to monitor their inter plane tactical frequency and be up to date with what they were going to do prior to and during a dog fight.  On one occasion, we briefed a two v two for some aerial jousting.  My wingman had a mechanical at the quick check before takeoff and had to abort the sortie.  So, I launched, checked in with GCI and started making radios calls in two different voices to myself over our briefed frequency.  Not knowing what kind of secondary radio the Tomcats had, I figured, why not.   I was also monitoring their frequency on my data link receiver.  So, when both "sets" of fighters called ready to GCI, it was fight's on.  Our ROE was heaters and guns, and nor turns or altitude deviations until passing the 3/9 line.  On the first pass I aimed straight at the two of them as my wingman and I made the appropriate tactical calls.  With a visual on both, I picked the closest one and went nose to nose, with briefed altitude separation, and rolled inverted to pass canopy to canopy at the merge.  They were both hesitant to turn because my wingman was still not in sight.  So, as a I blew straight through, they did the same.  Well, on the second engagement the exact same thing occurred.  Engagement three was different.  I could hear them chattering back and forth about not ever seeing a second Six and that they were probably fighting a single ship.  This time, as we made the canopy to canopy pass, we all turned, I got my one good bat turn out of the way, and the two of them ate my lunch. 

In the F-4, the opponent F-4's energy state in a turning fight was reasonably easy to measure by the amount of stabilator deflection the pilot was inputting.  Near full deflection=nearly out of airspeed and ideas.  Additionally, observing the amount of aileron and spoiler deflection was also telling.  With both of these near full deflection, there soon had to be some sort of nose down, full AB maneuver in an attempt to regain speed and avoid a snap shot.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 05:48:27 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #155 on: January 20, 2017, 05:52:19 PM »
So when your F-106 blew past the F-14s, and they kept on going straight, was the fight over? Considered a draw?
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #156 on: January 20, 2017, 09:37:24 PM »
So when your F-106 blew past the F-14s, and they kept on going straight, was the fight over? Considered a draw?

They also blew through because they couldn't find my wingman.  If they had turned on me, he would have jumped them........well, if he was really there.  So, they extended out and we called a mutual "knock it off" and set up for another one.  Yes, a draw, and another one, and then they figured out what I was doing to them.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 11:04:47 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline 1Duke1

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #157 on: January 20, 2017, 11:43:18 PM »
Ever wonder why the Tomcat came into the break with wings swept back?? :evil:

I bet Mace knows...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 11:47:58 PM by 1Duke1 »
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Offline Gman

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #158 on: January 20, 2017, 11:52:21 PM »
Mace has posted about that before - anyone know where Mace went? 

Great posts Puma/Eagl.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #159 on: January 21, 2017, 12:23:29 AM »
Ever wonder why the Tomcat came into the break with wings swept back?? :evil:

I bet Mace knows...
Tactical speed up initial, faster roll rate in the break,.......?



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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #160 on: January 21, 2017, 09:56:54 AM »
Having read all this, I still have concerns about a Delta style wings performance when taking off from a treadmill.  Can it be done or will excessive drag combined with the treadmill speed negate the vortices lift benefits?

Good one!  :D
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #161 on: January 21, 2017, 10:44:00 AM »
Ever wonder why the Tomcat came into the break with wings swept back?? :evil:

I bet Mace knows...

Because it looks cooler.  :aok
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #162 on: January 21, 2017, 10:46:05 AM »
That too!  It sounds pretty cool also!



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Offline Nilsen

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #163 on: January 21, 2017, 03:57:11 PM »
This is a true Delta shape



« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 03:58:44 PM by Nilsen »

Offline 1Duke1

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #164 on: January 21, 2017, 11:14:03 PM »
Because it looks cooler.  :aok

You sir are correct!!  It was the only reason :rock

If you were going to do anything in the Turkey, you had better have looked cool doing it!!!!

« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 11:16:20 PM by 1Duke1 »
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