An Open Discussion About Skin Slots and Outdated Skins - What Next?

[Vraciu]

I don't know how to bring this up without stepping on toes so I will just throw it out there.

Let me preface by saying I am not intending to disparage ANYONE with these comments.  I just want to start a dialogue and see if there is a way to make things better.

I will use the P-51D as an example but it can apply to any skin.

The D slots are full.   I currently have two skins in the cue that are, in my opinion, superior to most of the skins that are in the game, particularly the orphans.   This is not the fault of those skins or their creators...the game has simply evolved and the people who created them are not here to update them.   Graphics and eye candy do matter, and I feel it is in HTC's interests to have the best possible presentation regarding same.   I have heard some highly critical words regarding some of the skins in the game currently.   Again, not the fault of those who made them, time has just passed them by.

We have a small cadre of active skinners.  In the P-51 section it seems that there are maybe three of us who are actively cranking out skins (new or updates): Fencer, Oboe, and myself (FTJR is also working on one of his Mustangs).   I may be speaking out of turn but...   The work we are doing on the P-51, with the exception of the default by Cactus--which is really nice--has been quite the upgrade over what was here when the AH3 transition happened.

The reality is that not every orphaned skin currently employed in the game will be adopted.   I find myself uninterested in most of them.   It's just a personal preference.   (Also I am sure many are never flown in the game now for whatever reason--including dated rendering.) So that means HTC is going to be stuck with skins that are terribly outdated and do not reflect the capabilities of the game.    As good as they were in their day I doubt they'd be used in advertising now.   Right or wrong?

I would REALLY love for some additional slots to be opened.   This is one question my limited exposure to programming does not provide an answer for, namely: How is it not possible to add skin slots on a per-airplane basis?   That is the best solution in my mind if it can be done.

Here are options I see:

1) Add skin slots to those that are full upon request.
2) Delete older skins to make room for those being created by active skinners and place them in a "museum" gallery on the website as a gesture of appreciation for the work that went into them.
3) Create a subset of the P-51D.  This can be the D-5 (new FM), P-51K (Dallas-built P-51D with the same FM)* or it can be a P-51D - 2  which contains all the old AH2 skins so they are still available in the game for those who want them.   
4) Update the P-51D 3D model and wipe out all the skins there now.  Then we can start from scratch.   This seems to be where things are headed eventually any way.


The reality is that those of us here now have some passion and interest in doing these skins.   That there is no place for our work is a bit frustrating.    Surely there is something that can be done so we can put our work out there to make AH3 the best it can be.   Also, being a paying customer should perhaps receive some consideration in this matter.

I welcome input from any and all.   Maybe I'm just completely off base.   Thanks for reading.    Looking forward to your responses.

______________


*This has become my preference. Likewise for the P-51B--which is one slot short of full--we could add a P-51C.  We can keep all the skins currently in the game and open up slots for new ones.  Call it a substitution.  K = D  and B = C 

[Devil 505]

It may seem harsh, but I would not object to culling the herd, so to speak. Many of the older skins lack the expected quality these days.

This is not a critique of the finished work, or a criticism of the artists that made them. They were fine in their day, but their day has passed them by. Old or poorly done skins do not showcase this game favorably.

Perhaps the current skinners are the best authority to determine which skins are worthy of keeping and should form a committee to vote on which skins meet our collective standards.

Evaluating the artistic merits of our skins is not something I take lightly, but I do see it as a necessity given the current market. Visuals matter.

[Skuzzy]

Jumping the gun.

I already said we would cull the old skins out, but not before everyone has a chance to adopt a skin.

Adding more slots is not an option, at this time.

[Devil 505]

Jumping the gun.

I already said we would cull the old skins out, but not before everyone has a chance to adopt a skin.

Adding more slots is not an option, at this time.

I know you stated before that you wanted to limit adoptions to one skin adoption per skinner at a time, but perhaps it would be more efficient to have the skinners claim all the skins they want to adopt at one time and accelerate the culling of the rest?

[oboe]

Well, here are my thoughts:

I concur with Skuzzy about not adding more slots for current aircraft.   32 selections in the skin hangar dropdown is already quite a few to deal with.   I'd rather see, in the case of the P-51, an early model without the tail fillet added, and for the P-51B, a birdcage canopy model.  That would create additional slots and also allow the skins to be depicted on historically accurate airframes.  But I'm sure you guys have your hands full with Steam, VR, the AH1 models, bugs, etc right now.

About the adoption process:   It seems to me it might take an awfully long time to accomplish much.  A skinner must be gone from the game for a year before his skins will even be put up for adoption, and there are probably also cases of old skins where the skinner may still be around, but for whatever reason doesn't intend to update his skin(s) to the new standard.  So they'll remain in game, as is, taking up slots that could be used for newer, better-looking skins.   It just seems critical to me to get AH3 skins in good shape ASAP, but the adoption process seems more geared to slow and steady, incremental improvement. 

I'm also thinking it may be less-than-ideal to require the adopting skinner to re-do the exact same scheme.  That means once a plane's slots are full, no new schemes can be put in the game.  The first 32 skins are what AH will have for the forseeable future for that aircraft, and that seems so limiting in a world where there are so many different schemes that can be done - to enhance scenarios, get fresh looks into game, create a specific plane for a newly formed squad, etc.

Anyway, that's my two cents.   I think I should add its very easy to criticize something.  Every design has its tradeoffs and strengths and weaknesses; nothing's perfect, and you can never please all the people all the time.

Also, I think it would be very helpful info to know how often each skin is used.  The server must know, though it might not record it in  log file.  But I think it would be helpful to have empirical data about which skins are used frequently, and which are not.

[Vraciu]

Jumping the gun.

I already said we would cull the old skins out, but not before everyone has a chance to adopt a skin.

Adding more slots is not an option, at this time.

Not even a P-51K?   You wouldn't even have to change the FM. 

[Skuzzy]

Doing variants of a plane is not adding more slots.

By the way, just think about that one.  When we get around to updating the P51, all the skins will have to be redone.

[Vraciu]

Doing variants of a plane is not adding more slots.

By the way, just think about that one.  When we get around to updating the P51, all the skins will have to be redone.

Adding a P-51K adds 32 slots if you treat it like a completely separate model a la the B.   The upside being you keep all the same parameters as the D so it's a copy/paste with a label change.   Or whatever it is you do to program it in.

I do understand, however, that they'll have to be redone eventually.  I mentioned that in the OP (ha ha).

But you'll get new skins in the interim for little relative effort.   That makes it worth it for all involved IMO.   The D is not in desperate need of a revision either, so you'll get some mileage out of these if you choose to leave it as-is for a couple years.

The first guy who lands kills in a P-51K is gonna' spark some interest, too.

[Vraciu]

I know you stated before that you wanted to limit adoptions to one skin adoption per skinner at a time, but perhaps it would be more efficient to have the skinners claim all the skins they want to adopt at one time and accelerate the culling of the rest?

Why not an open call with a 60-day window?   Skins not adopted after 60 days are dropped or moved perhaps?

Well, here are my thoughts:

I concur with Skuzzy about not adding more slots for current aircraft.   32 selections in the skin hangar dropdown is already quite a few to deal with.   I'd rather see, in the case of the P-51, an early model without the tail fillet added, and for the P-51B, a birdcage canopy model.  That would create additional slots and also allow the skins to be depicted on historically accurate airframes.  But I'm sure you guys have your hands full with Steam, VR, the AH1 models, bugs, etc right now.

Some games out there have hundreds of skins.   I don't see 32 as all that many.    That said, if we added a second version of the same FM you could have the AH2 versions in one and the AH3 updates in another.   You might even list them as old vs new so people will understand why some don't look updated.

Am I wrong in thinking that WT (or some other game)  has P-51D-5NA, P-51D-20NA, P-51D-20NT (P-51K), etc.? 


For our purposes, since we don't do dash numbers...

P-51B
P-51C
P-51D
P-51K

That gets you 64 slots for each main variant (B, D).

About the adoption process:   It seems to me it might take an awfully long time to accomplish much.  A skinner must be gone from the game for a year before his skins will even be put up for adoption, and there are probably also cases of old skins where the skinner may still be around, but for whatever reason doesn't intend to update his skin(s) to the new standard.  So they'll remain in game, as is, taking up slots that could be used for newer, better-looking skins.   It just seems critical to me to get AH3 skins in good shape ASAP, but the adoption process seems more geared to slow and steady, incremental improvement. 

I'm also thinking it may be less-than-ideal to require the adopting skinner to re-do the exact same scheme.  That means once a plane's slots are full, no new schemes can be put in the game.  The first 32 skins are what AH will have for the forseeable future for that aircraft, and that seems so limiting in a world where there are so many different schemes that can be done - to enhance scenarios, get fresh looks into game, create a specific plane for a newly formed squad, etc.

Anyway, that's my two cents.   I think I should add its very easy to criticize something.  Every design has its tradeoffs and strengths and weaknesses; nothing's perfect, and you can never please all the people all the time.

Also, I think it would be very helpful info to know how often each skin is used.  The server must know, though it might not record it in  log file.  But I think it would be helpful to have empirical data about which skins are used frequently, and which are not.

I agree with this.    Makes a lot of sense overall.

Also, as noted above, yes all the skins will need to be redone in the future if the 3D shape is changed.   But who knows when that will be?   In the meantime those of us here creating new stuff have no place for it.   It's a win-win for HTC to find a place for new work, especially an airplane as popular as the Mustang is.

Here's to hoping...

<S>

[oboe]

Vraciu, I would love to see two variants of each P-51 (especially since there are physical model changes in the structure - with or without tail fillet in the D, Malcolm/birdcage canopy in the B).

I'm sure there are sims out there with 100s of skins per plane, but how does their skin selection process works?  I don't think I'd enjoy scrolling through even 64 skins using AH's current skin selection window.   If we ever end up with that many I think it'd be time to implement filters (Nationality, Theater of action, skinner, etc?) to limit how many skins show up at once in the selection window.  Or maybe the "Favorite" list could save the skin you choose for the a/c saved.
Anyway it would be a nice problem to deal with...

[Vraciu]

Vraciu, I would love to see two variants of each P-51 (especially since there are physical model changes in the structure - with or without tail fillet in the D, Malcolm/birdcage canopy in the B).

I know you're passionate about that fin filet.   Totally understandable.  But that is going to require a mod to the FM.   At least with a P-51C and a P-51K Skuzzy can roll it out using existing parameters.   This is the least resource intensive solution to open slots for existing skinners without offending sensibilities.

Perhaps a D-5 will come later.   Would be useful as a slightly less ENY-sensitive airframe.   

I'm sure there are sims out there with 100s of skins per plane, but how does their skin selection process works?  I don't think I'd enjoy scrolling through even 64 skins using AH's current skin selection window.   If we ever end up with that many I think it'd be time to implement filters (Nationality, Theater of action, skinner, etc?) to limit how many skins show up at once in the selection window.  Or maybe the "Favorite" list could save the skin you choose for the a/c saved.
Anyway it would be a nice problem to deal with...

This is something I've chewed on for awhile.   The drop down menu suffers from a lack of visuals.    Since the clipboard now has added capabilities it would be nice to have thumbnails off to the side in addition to the pull down menu.   Then people can get a rough idea as to what skins look like without have to click through each one.

I also think naming conventions are a tad limiting.   If an airplane has a nickname, for example, it would be helpful to append that name to the end of the tag.   I do this offline to differentiate my works in progress. 

Example: 52FG/4FS - "Jo-Baby" by Vraciu

[Greebo]

I doubt HTC would add a variant of a plane just to boost the skin slot count. When they update the P-51 my guess is they might add the A to the B and D.

When this has come up in the past the issue has been that when a skin gets deleted some players/squads get highly upset that their favourite skin has gone. While you might think that other players would be equally happy that a new skin has taken its place and so this would balance out, human nature is that people are a lot more vocal about stuff they don't like than stuff that they do.

[Vraciu]

I doubt HTC would add a variant of a plane just to boost the skin slot count. When they update the P-51 my guess is they might add the A to the B and D.

When this has come up in the past the issue has been that when a skin gets deleted some players/squads get highly upset that their favourite skin has gone. While you might think that other players would be equally happy that a new skin has taken its place and so this would balance out, human nature is that people are a lot more vocal about stuff they don't like than stuff that they do.

I don't see the reasoning.   We have better skins in the pipeline than many already in the game.   They're ready now.  They can serve the game now instead of waiting for an update that could be years away.

If keeping old skins is vital then they can be delineated as such so new players understand why some may have dated effects.

Adding a variant allows HTC to have both options.   Keeping older skins while allowing better (not meant as a perjorative) ones in as well. 

I don't factor the intransigence/resistance (for lack of better words) here.  It doesn't help HTC in any way I can see to shut the door on innovation, especially when it's essentially free.   

I have two D Mustangs ready to go.  I have no doubt they're an upgrade and would garner interest.  I'm not alone here as Oboe and Fencer both have some in the works as well.   "Release the hounds!"   

[Skuzzy]

I don't see the reasoning.   <snip>

That right there is the telling tale.  I do not mean this in a bad way, but you do not understand software development, long term support, nor resources impacted by each change made to the game and how that impacts every computer system running the software.  Most players do not need to understand it, but when you start asking for things outside the scope of a player is when one should have a handle on it.

Greebo has a better handle on it and that is why his statement is closer to being on target than you want to accept.

This is not a good medium to try and educate someone in software development, deployment, and support.

[Vraciu]

That right there is the telling tale.  I do not mean this in a bad way, but you do not understand software development, long term support, nor resources impacted by each change made to the game and how that impacts every computer system running the software.  Most players do not need to understand it, but when you start asking for things outside the scope of a player is when one should have a handle on it.

Greebo has a better handle on it and that is why his statement is closer to being on target than you want to accept.

This is not a good medium to try and educate someone in software development, deployment, and support.

No offense taken.

Not asking you to teach me to be a programmer or anything like that.  But the fact is you have the ability to add FMs to the game.  We hear that a primary factor in the development department relates to the time it takes to code the FM characteristics and the 3D modeling.  Adding a second airplane with identical parameters surely takes only a fraction of that effort.  If it's not possible for other reasons....well....so be it.   

That said...

I don't mean this in a bad way either, just stick with me for a second.  All I get out of this is "we can't we can't" which I am sure is not the case.  But assuming it is for the sake of argument...

If a second FM with a slightly different label is not viable then how about starting on the process to eliminate dated skins?   A timeframe would certainly alleviate anxiety from my perspective.   Others may feel the same.

Thinking out loud here but...

Perhaps an email campaign to the people who made the orphans would get some of them to resubscribe even.   Could be a win win.