Need help with skins for a TV production!

[Litjan]

Hi fellow AHers!

I am working with a British TV producer on a documentary about several aircraft from WWII that were recently found and salvaged.

One incident we are going to portray was the shooting of an unarmed recon Spitfire on March 5th 1942 over Trondheim bei Heinz Knoke in a Bf109E-7 of Jagdgruppe Losigkeit.

I have secured permission to use AH3 to create visual sequences of that encounter - described in Heinz Knokeīs book "I flew for the Fuehrer".

To make it as accurate as possible, I would love to get historically accurate skins for the Spitfire according to this description:

A810 was a Spitfire PR.IV.
The PR.IV was a Mk1 spitfire on its fourth development revision. Attached is a picture of a Mk1.
Later developments of the PR Spitfires were the PR.XI and the PR.XIX (pictures attached. The blue of the PR.XI is the shade of blue AA810 would have worn, and I have attached a drawing which is close to accurate but needs some revisions.

And also a skin for the Bf109 E7 used at that time - here are two links giving some detail about them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Knoke

https://books.google.de/books?id=r2M9DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT29&lpg=PT29&dq=Jagdgruppe+Losigkeit&source=bl&ots=Tuu0LoVJLl&sig=btgdcwC_KVfLLW9Tt23m1trLnmE&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjm07T889TaAhWBGewKHYjOAaEQ6AEIQTAD#v=onepage&q=Jagdgruppe%20Losigkeit&f=false

The unit was the 4th Group of JG.1

I tried to take a look at making skins for Aces High (there is already a PRU skin for the Spit Mk I) but this is a bit over my head...

Thanks for help or suggestions, Jan (Litjan)

[lyric1]

One incident we are going to portray was the shooting of an unarmed recon Spitfire on March 5th 1942 over Trondheim bei Heinz Knoke in a Bf109E-7 of Jagdgruppe Losigkeit.

This has a list of his planes & some photos.

http://franckruffino.chez.com/My-Site/The_planes.htm

The Spit he shot down and its pilot.

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=140897

Parts of the actual Spit wreckage.
Knoke tells the story in the link below.

http://franckruffino.chez.com/My-Site/Victory_0.htm

Lilo Black 3.
The ditched aircraft photo was the day after getting the spit.





https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/Jasta/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4-2.JG1-Black-3-Heinz-Knoke-Lilo-Katwijk-Holland-Aug-1941-0A.html

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/Jasta/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4-2.JG1-Black-1-Katwijk-Holland-Aug-1941-01.html

[oboe]

I think you are absolutely right to go for historically accurate skins for this production.   Its also a great opportunity for Aces High and Hitechcreations to be used for this.

There are two active skinners who stand out in my mind as being particularly qualified for this effort, both by their skinning talent and existing portfolio of skins: Greebo for the Spitfire and Devil505 for the 109E.   They would do an excellent job, and likely be able to complete the skins in less time than other skinners who haven't worked with these models.  Other skinners might be starting from scratch, but they can start from a template.

I don't mean to volunteer their time for them; I am just pointing you in their direction with hearty recommendations.

<S>

[Devil 505]

Thanks Oboe for the endorsement.

Unfortunately, I cannot help with this project at this time. What time I do have to skin is being spent on other projects, and that time is very limited for the next few weeks.

Furthermore, the 3D shape of our 109E  is one of the oldest and crudest of the AH2 standard shapes. I feel that using it for any publicity would actually be a disservice to this game. It really needs to be the first Ah2 shape to be updated to Ah3 standard once the Ah1 planes are finished. The shape really is that bad and only looks worse considering that the 109E is represented at much better quality in every single competitor to Aces High. I'm sure the Spit 1 is in a similar state.

The old adage of putting lipstick on a pig applies here.

[Litjan]

Thanks for the replies, everyone - and the added information and resources!

I think I will shoot most of the footage with X-Plane 11. I am very familiar with it and I have procured some good models and skins already. Plus its a bit easier to alter skins, I can just use Paint or a similiar program and it turns out "ok". XP11 will be used for shots like taking off, flying over Trondheim, etc.

The actual "firing" shots can be done with AH3 in a way so its not really possible to see much of the planes liveries, if needed - i.e. from behind/front.

I was trying to get permission to use IL2 Cliffs of Dover for this, but 1C has not even seen the need to answer my emails.

So I really wonīt need a super-detailed skin, I have a PRU skin for the Spitfire Mk1 already, and will just pick a "lookalike" skin for the Emil, and go for aft/front shots.

Thanks, Jan

[Greebo]

I can make you that Spitfire skin Litjan. The files would be emailed to you for installation into your AH skins folder as only armed recon Spits can be submitted as MA skins.

I have my doubts about the profile you posted though, the aircraft should have looked more like the one in this link with two colour roundels on the fuselage sides and upper wings only.

[Litjan]

Hi Greebo,

that would be totally awesome! Yes, your picture may be more accurate - the one I posted was a rough sketch by one of the aviation historians who is working with Andy on this...

My email is JanVogel@freenet.de - shoot me a mail if you can so we can discuss this a bit further!

Thanks a lot, Jan

[Brooke]

Litjan, best of luck on it!  Sounds great! 

[Devil 505]

Lilo Black 3.
The ditched aircraft photo was the day after getting the spit.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/Jasta/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4-2.JG1-Black-3-Heinz-Knoke-Lilo-Katwijk-Holland-Aug-1941-0A.html

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/Jasta/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4-2.JG1-Black-1-Katwijk-Holland-Aug-1941-01.html

That profile really bugs me. Unless there's a crash report that actually confirms the colors of the cowling, I would disregard that interpretation as it goes against the conventions of Channel Front fighters in 1941-42.

The only yellow should be the bottom of the cowl,not the top. The photos also suggest this to be true as the lower cowl is a different shade than the adjacent fuselage paint, which would be light blue. Also note that the upper cowling matches the darker of the two top colors - most certainly RML 71 olive green.

[Litjan]

I agree with your assessment, Devil 505. I donīt think the cowling would be yellow on top, either.

Oh well, it doesnīt matter as I wonīt have an accurate skin for the 109 in my movie-shooting anyway...I will just have to do with what I currently have in AH 

Cheers, Jan

[lyric1]

That profile really bugs me. Unless there's a crash report that actually confirms the colors of the cowling, I would disregard that interpretation as it goes against the conventions of Channel Front fighters in 1941-42.

The only yellow should be the bottom of the cowl,not the top. The photos also suggest this to be true as the lower cowl is a different shade than the adjacent fuselage paint, which would be light blue. Also note that the upper cowling matches the darker of the two top colors - most certainly RML 71 olive green.

Wouldn't that era of black and white film be similar to the yellow band roundel on early British aircraft looking so dark?

[Devil 505]

Wouldn't that era of black and white film be similar to the yellow band roundel on early British aircraft looking so dark?

(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

Not that simple, not by a long shot. There are so many variables in the processing of film and how colors are interpreted into B/W. Making the assumption you did is far more shaky than basing interpretations based on knowledge of common painting standards.

[Greebo]

Seems like it would be a lot more likely to be green to me, the sun nose art is probably yellow and look how much lighter it is.

Its a shame you don't want to do this Devil, it would be nice to have Knoke's actual scheme in the TV programme.

[Devil 505]

Its a shame you don't want to do this Devil, it would be nice to have Knoke's actual scheme in the TV programme.

It would require me making an entirely new template for the 109E and I have too many other projects going at the moment. Like I said before, the current 109E 3D model is laughably poor compared to the 109E models of other games.

Since LitJan stated that he would use AH only for the inside cockpit views, he would be fine using my 4./Jg 77 skin. That is my best skin using the standard RLM 71/02 camouflage.

[Greebo]

My bad, I thought you already had a template for the 109E.