Author Topic: This game has ran its course  (Read 19301 times)

Offline CptTrips

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2018, 03:24:43 PM »
Oddly enough, AH has no real competition. Warthunder is an arcade. DCS is a great sim, but poor game (furnall arena is the closest it comes to AH). IL2 has some private servers that can somewhat resemble a persistent arena, but that is it.

Which is an interesting point.  Why do you think that is?  I'm sure the IL2 guys could find the technical talent to put up a persistent world.  I wonder if the cost/revenue ratio is just higher for larger volume standalone offline.

:salute
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Offline Wiley

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2018, 03:41:21 PM »
Which is an interesting point.  Why do you think that is?  I'm sure the IL2 guys could find the technical talent to put up a persistent world.  I wonder if the cost/revenue ratio is just higher for larger volume standalone offline.

:salute

It's simple.  Open world capture the map ongoing PvP is not as popular as rounds based stuff like WT or IL2.  There were a lot of people playing AH at its height that were tolerating the open world map because there were no viable alternatives.  Once alternatives came along that were more instant action, they jumped ship.

Wiley.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2018, 04:04:01 PM »
It's simple.  Open world capture the map ongoing PvP is not as popular as rounds based stuff like WT or IL2.  There were a lot of people playing AH at its height that were tolerating the open world map because there were no viable alternatives.  Once alternatives came along that were more instant action, they jumped ship.

Wiley.

I think there is a lot of truth to that.

I have to admit to having the same impulse.  After playing Battlefield for 10 years, it's really hard to take a 15 minute flight (which feels like eternity) to find a good fight, get killed instantly because I suck, and then face a long flight again to get another try. 

Compared to the gameplay people get exposed to elsewhere, that can feel almost like .... drudgery. 

Talk about timid game play?  I don't think people fear dying or hurting their score, I think they fear getting sent back to the hangar and having to face another long boring flight to get back to some fun.  The pace of action is really different from what people are used to.

It's great if you are in to that.  I used to do it.  I just find the pace really slow now. I guess I've gotten spoiled. 

Combat Tour would have been a good alternative to this.  Putting you smack into a micro scenario, in flight, with action right ahead of you. 

Combat Tour.....If I had to put a finger on when I felt the momentum of this game shift, it is when they tabled Combat Tour. Maybe it was coincidence, but that's when it started to feel like the air letting out of a tire.  I hope they eventually get that going.  That could be a real market differentiator and maybe appeal to more people than can tolerate the long-form game-play.

 :salute






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Offline Devil 505

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2018, 04:10:35 PM »
It's simple.  Open world capture the map ongoing PvP is not as popular as rounds based stuff like WT or IL2.  There were a lot of people playing AH at its height that were tolerating the open world map because there were no viable alternatives.  Once alternatives came along that were more instant action, they jumped ship.

Wiley.

Multiplayer in Il2 is not round based in the same sense as War Blunder. Servers have a set time limit for a map reset - 2 hours for example, but eill also reset after the victory conditions are met before that time is up.

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Offline Wiley

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2018, 04:14:18 PM »
I think there is a lot of truth to that.

I have to admit to having the same impulse.  After playing Battlefield for 10 years, it's really hard to take a 15 minute flight (which feels like eternity) to find a good fight, get killed instantly because I suck, and then face a long flight again to get another try. 

Compared to the gameplay people get exposed to elsewhere, that can feel almost like .... drudgery. 

Talk about timid game play?  I don't think people fear dying or hurting their score, I think they fear getting sent back to the hangar and having to face another long boring flight to get back to some fun.  The pace of action is really different from what people are used to.

It's great if you are in to that.  I used to do it.  I just find the pace really slow now. I guess I've gotten spoiled. 

Well, that's the thing.  For some people, that's what they want and that's great.  For the most part long term I'd much rather play this or Planetside 2 or something like Elite Dangerous instead of something like WT or Counterstrike.  I take breaks where I more or less only fly FSO and squad night, but I always circle back eventually.

Quote
Combat Tour would have been a good alternative to this.  Putting you smack into a micro scenario, in flight, with action right ahead of you. 

Combat Tour.....If I had to put a finger on when I felt the momentum of this game shift, it is when they tabled Combat Tour. Maybe it was coincidence, but that's when it started to feel like the air letting out of a tire.  I hope they eventually get that going.  That could be a real market differentiator and maybe appeal to more people than can tolerate the long-form game-play.

 :salute

I just don't see what CT would bring that isn't covered by the stuff like WT.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline Wiley

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2018, 04:15:10 PM »
Multiplayer in Il2 is not round based in the same sense as War Blunder. Servers have a set time limit for a map reset - 2 hours for example, but eill also reset after the victory conditions are met before that time is up.

It still sets a much different tone than a time limit of days.

Wiley.
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Offline waystin2

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2018, 04:36:53 PM »
The Pigs will never be seen on ILDoo or War blunder.  Those two games simply cannot accommodate us.  You are more likely to see us playing Star Trek, Eve online, or maybe as a bunch of Hobbits...   We stay here for the genre and the arena size.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2018, 04:40:41 PM »
I just don't see what CT would bring that isn't covered by the stuff like WT.

I only played with WT about 30 min.  Maybe I didn't set it up right, but there didn't seem to be any real flight model.  I ain't using a mouse to fly.  It seems like everything was locked into two dimensional maneuvers.

I want a real flight model for the action part, I just don't want a 20 min climb out. 
I don't want a mindless furball lake, I want there to be a goal to achieve and a way to measure victory or defeat.
I want the entire experience from start to finish to last about 30min.  Like in Battlefield I can start a match, the action is almost instant, it is intense action for the duration, and one way or another it is over in about 25-30 minutes.  I can then leave having won or lost definitively, or choose to play another round. 

If Combat Tour could achieve those game-play goals, combined with their flight realism, I think they would have a winner that would appeal to a bigger audience than the current model.

:salute

[edit]  Of course, I assume they will always have the arena around for people who prefer that.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 04:43:35 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2018, 04:54:04 PM »
It still sets a much different tone than a time limit of days.

Wiley.

Yes, but the map reset time has very little to do with a different tone. Gameplay in Il2 is SLOWER paced than AH. You spawn at a dispersal area, not on the runway. You have to wait for other friendly aircraft to clear your path to the runway because friendly collisions are always on. The engine start-up are much more lengthy. You can spend minutes on the ground before you are actually flying.

Flight times to targets are similar to AH. but since the only populated multiplayer arenas are full realism arenas, there are no icons of any type in the playable world. Targets can be very difficult to spot - expect to be shot down every sortie by an unseen enemy. Ground targets like tank/truck convoys will require multiple passes just to locate and stationary targets are so heavily defended by auto ack that a solo attack is near suicide.

A typical sortie requires more time invested with a greater risk of death. If AH is too much, then they have no chance in Il2.
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Offline puller

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2018, 05:30:13 PM »
Yes, but the map reset time has very little to do with a different tone. Gameplay in Il2 is SLOWER paced than AH. You spawn at a dispersal area, not on the runway. You have to wait for other friendly aircraft to clear your path to the runway because friendly collisions are always on. The engine start-up are much more lengthy. You can spend minutes on the ground before you are actually flying.

Flight times to targets are similar to AH. but since the only populated multiplayer arenas are full realism arenas, there are no icons of any type in the playable world. Targets can be very difficult to spot - expect to be shot down every sortie by an unseen enemy. Ground targets like tank/truck convoys will require multiple passes just to locate and stationary targets are so heavily defended by auto ack that a solo attack is near suicide.

A typical sortie requires more time invested with a greater risk of death. If AH is too much, then they have no chance in Il2.

Been playing with IL2 for a while now and haven't laid a round on an enemy plane...and I am killed every sortie by unseen enemy

It took me 2 day just to take off in IL... :bhead
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Offline Arlo

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2018, 05:37:49 PM »
I just don't see what CT would bring that isn't covered by the stuff like WT.

From what I recall (and please bear with me 'cause my recall ain't what it was and it never was all that), CT was supposed to be more of an immersive feel with players actually 'role-playing' what it was like to be a pilot in WWII (selecting a specific nation to fight for, rising up the ranks, etc.). I've never played WT. Is that what they do there? Is it a game where you immerse yourself in a WWII environment and virtually become a pilot (or even other type of combatant) and struggle to survive the war and earn medals and rank and stuff on the way (virtual glory)?

Offline Arlo

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2018, 05:39:34 PM »
The Pigs will never be seen on ILDoo or War blunder.  Those two games simply cannot accommodate us.  You are more likely to see us playing Star Trek, Eve online, or maybe as a bunch of Hobbits...   We stay here for the genre and the arena size.

I know .... someone .... ummmm .... that has 25 characters in STO. It's amusing to some degree. That fella is waitin' for his desktop to be functional. ;)

Offline bustr

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2018, 05:53:31 PM »
Scale, time, and activity should be something you can create a formula to design terrains for the MA. With my three terrains back to back over two years, I saw that formula for this open world environment. Aces High has been unique in it's scale versus the competition. Unless all you want to do is sign in, then mindlessly furball like an arcade game, the MA as it has played for 20 years has to be large. The scale is needed so furballing, tanking, bombing, CVing and territory capture can happen at the same time. Either all together at one spot or, five seperate activity groups doing their thing oblivious of each other. That is the nature of sand box worlds with few structured activities other than imagination.

The smaller you make the arena, the more arcadeish the game becomes due to compressing the country populations so it's easy to constantly get at people. Kind of like the furball island on NDisles when all the knights decided to play there swamping the smaller numbers of bish and rooks who showed up. Numbers in a small area creates a MOB mentality that has a life of it's own. More often we see this with base captures, when it happens with furballs, it mostly brings out the worst gameplay furball tactics from the winning hoard. And an amazing amount of timid play from that largest group in the furball instead of mass whopping down on the lesser numbers they are hoarded against. I've watched this phenomenon for nearly 20 years. The largest group in the furball with overwhelming odds will not mass attack like an organized fighter sweep by a large squad. Instead they will mill together circling from the ground up to 20k and avoid combat looking for a pick for hours upon boring hours.

So smaller terrains would solve our game play problem? Yet we have 20 years of evidence the smaller the area you jam numbers into, the more they will play badly together becasue of hoard mentality. Remember WT only jams 10 on each side into it's postage stamp arenas for a set period of time. Not much different than our old squad dueling league back in AH2. Hitech would be setting us loose for 24x7 with almost no rules to use our imaginations without even sides like squad dueling did. And it would be three countries, not two teams of 10 or 12 until the last man standing, about 10-15 minutes of piu, piu, piu versus keeping an arena open 24x7.

Here are screens shots, one is my terrain Oceania which is a 10x10 terrain and has activity during prime time when ever it's up. And below it is that terrain reduced to a 5x5. Flying P51 you can easily in a short time harass every enemy field in each country with no place to get away from being griefed on landing or take off on a 5x5. Players with 262 points could easily hang out in your back field waiting for bombers that will be low and slow. Or those P51 hanging out in yours waiting to pick 262 on take off. 5x5 would be Hitech's version of those tiny WT arenas that you have no place to run but, for 24x7. And how would you capture feilds unless everyone simply ignores each other while taking bases. And to meet 20% of each country would be about 3 feilds a piece from the other countries. So the same cast of characters who flip maps in the wee hours would probably spend the night flipping a queue of 5x5 maps all night long. Then the biggy no one wants to hear in this game every time I've brought it up. You need space in this kind of combat game so players can have a buffer from being slaughtered. On that 5x5 version several squads would turn the night into their pet feeding ground and abuse everyone. There would be no buffer space which would drive customers out of the game becasue a small number of players would dictate how they play the game. This would be the furballer's version of those single finger salutes at the end of AH2 by strat runners which kept radar shutdown almost all night. A 7x7 might work, it would be harder on bomber players than fighter players while having scale. Yeah back to that formula for the AH Melee arena.





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Offline turt21

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2018, 06:01:47 PM »
Im thinking now that cannibis is legal in Canuckistan we Canucks will be discovering this game all over again. Who cares if you cant hit anything. ...(You gonna eat that whole bag?)

Offline flippz

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Re: This game has ran its course
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2018, 06:47:02 PM »
Yes, but the map reset time has very little to do with a different tone. Gameplay in Il2 is SLOWER paced than AH. You spawn at a dispersal area, not on the runway. You have to wait for other friendly aircraft to clear your path to the runway because friendly collisions are always on. The engine start-up are much more lengthy. You can spend minutes on the ground before you are actually flying.

Flight times to targets are similar to AH. but since the only populated multiplayer arenas are full realism arenas, there are no icons of any type in the playable world. Targets can be very difficult to spot - expect to be shot down every sortie by an unseen enemy. Ground targets like tank/truck convoys will require multiple passes just to locate and stationary targets are so heavily defended by auto ack that a solo attack is near suicide.

A typical sortie requires more time invested with a greater risk of death. If AH is too much, then they have no chance in Il2.

I disagree. I land a lot of sorties in il2. And I can deack ammo dumps and airfields with out ever being hit and with no map. There are no 17k pickers in that game, because you would never see them. Flight times are the same to target 5-8 mins and action is fast when you get there.  Ombers aren’t over powered in there and when you shoot the fuselage it actually has an effect. In the year or so of playing il2 I have had very few people run from a fight only to come back and kill you when you are tied up in fight.   I have never had to fly 1940 planes against 1945 planes in il2. There aren’t as many kills like in aces high but the action is definitely there.
I do hate there are no comms in there and hours of fligh are pretty lonely.