Another 737 down

[Vraciu]

Some wisdom pertinent to the situation:


Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we play for keeps.
-- Ernest Gann


What is chiefly needed is skill rather than machinery. 
-- Wilbur Wright


It is a good thing to learn caution from the misfortunes of others. 
-- Publilius Syrus


Mistakes are inevitable in aviation, especially when one is still learning new things. The trick is to not make the mistake that will kill you.
-- Stephen Coonts


If you can’t afford to do something right, then be darn sure you can afford to do it wrong.
-- Charlie Nelson


Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
— Captain A. G. Lamplugh



Don’t ever let an airplane take you someplace where your brain hasn’t arrived at least a couple of minutes earlier.
-- Andy Anderson


Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm.
-- Publius Syrus


Something was usually beginning before the last thing ended.
-- Captain Isbell, "Cassada" by James Salter

[ACE]

At this point you are talking to yourself. It’s weird.

[Puma44]

[Vraciu]

Nice cat.

[eagl]

I got called a troll by a guy who danced on a dead pilots grave.

And this right here is the difference between a "real" pilot and an imposter (even if that imposter actually does have flight time).  A real pilot isn't afraid to conduct an honest debrief and thoroughly discuss what really happened in a mishap without trying to sugar coat or gloss over anything.  Because in the long run, a brutally honest debrief saves lives.  A real pilot knows this, an imposter never will no matter how many hours he flies with his head shoved firmly up his poop hole in search of his personal safe space.

When pilots make a mistake, speaking the brutal truth is the only way to prevent someone else from making the same mistake.  Glossing over it just means someone else who doesn't get the real story will repeat the error and likely kill a bunch of people out of ignorance.  It isn't dancing on someone's grave, and in fact learning from "pilot error" is one of the most fundamentally traditional ways pilots honor their dead brothers and sisters.  Again, if you don't get it, you're an imposter and never will get it because you're not one of us.  Don't be mad about that, facts don't care about your feelz.

[ACE]

And this right here is the difference between a "real" pilot and an imposter (even if that imposter actually does have flight time).  A real pilot isn't afraid to conduct an honest debrief and thoroughly discuss what really happened in a mishap without trying to sugar coat or gloss over anything.  Because in the long run, a brutally honest debrief saves lives.  A real pilot knows this, an imposter never will no matter how many hours he flies with his head shoved firmly up his poop hole in search of his personal safe space.

When pilots make a mistake, speaking the brutal truth is the only way to prevent someone else from making the same mistake.  Glossing over it just means someone else who doesn't get the real story will repeat the error and likely kill a bunch of people out of ignorance.  It isn't dancing on someone's grave, and in fact learning from "pilot error" is one of the most fundamentally traditional ways pilots honor their dead brothers and sisters.  Again, if you don't get it, you're an imposter and never will get it because you're not one of us.  Don't be mad about that, facts don't care about your feelz.

Nice write up. I was more referring to absolutely degrading a human over a mistake/accident. If you think it’s cool to stomp on the grave of a man that’s on you. We can discuss what happened and how all day long but calling the man names? Nah I’ll keep it respectful.

I really think you missed the whole point. We aren’t talking about the 737 crash it was a different pilot.

[Vraciu]

And this right here is the difference between a "real" pilot and an imposter (even if that imposter actually does have flight time).  A real pilot isn't afraid to conduct an honest debrief and thoroughly discuss what really happened in a mishap without trying to sugar coat or gloss over anything.  Because in the long run, a brutally honest debrief saves lives.  A real pilot knows this, an imposter never will no matter how many hours he flies with his head shoved firmly up his poop hole in search of his personal safe space.

When pilots make a mistake, speaking the brutal truth is the only way to prevent someone else from making the same mistake.  Glossing over it just means someone else who doesn't get the real story will repeat the error and likely kill a bunch of people out of ignorance.  It isn't dancing on someone's grave, and in fact learning from "pilot error" is one of the most fundamentally traditional ways pilots honor their dead brothers and sisters.  Again, if you don't get it, you're an imposter and never will get it because you're not one of us.  Don't be mad about that, facts don't care about your feelz.

Well said.   Well said.

When we step aboard the jet (or any aircraft aircraft for that matter) we are well-advised to be a professional.  An expert technically and tactically.    None of us should ever want to be remembered for killing people--or just killing ourself while taking a priceless piece of history, an expensive frontline fighter jet, or some run of the mill Cessna 152 along with us--because we did the wrong thing.   If one's own life isn't worth it then that person should at least consider those who are along with them and/or those they leave behind.

As you noted, it is not dancing on the graves of the dead to properly and brutally analyze the human factors that cause a fatal crash.    It is an expectation of the job.  It just might save lives going forward.   

This crew blew it.   

The Viper driver earlier in this thread blew it.

People who have mashed up countless warbirds have also blown it. 

It is in our interests to keep that in mind when we think it can't happen to us.

The dancers are the trolls who keep making excuses for what boils down to complacency, arrogance, or just plain incompetence.   

[Toad]

Second hand from a former USAF friend:

We have shared opinions on the international conference hosted by the FAA here in the DFW area.  My initial
pessimism was too sharp.  The conference, in a perfect setting of PC, with experts from around the world, some
with actual aviation experience, some with absolutely none, providing their professional knowledge, experience
and expertise,  after serious and deep contemplation, have made a discovery! 

There is a true and alarming danger to flying 737 airplanes!!

After each and every conferee made his professional contribution it was agreed that “all Boeing 737 airplanes,
over 10,000 at last count, have electrical pitch trim and should be/could be/perhaps//was possible to have/might be
susceptible to trim problems!

There has been no actual “evidence” revealed that supports this concern but it could be!  An in depth investigation “must”
be conducted to confirm these airplanes are safe as they might crash.  This will delay the application to FAA to return
the Max to operate! 

Ethiopian Airways crashed on March 10.  FAA capitulated 3 days later:  78 days or so since the tragedy and it has been formally, internationally, officially determined they had a problem with which  they could not cope.  Other pilots can cope. That is not internationally polite!

FAA, our WDC elite and Congressional critters have done devastating damage to Boeing, public confidence and our international standing.  Oh, and to there own reputation though they know not enough to even be embarrassed.

You just know Boeing had their Flight Dynamics team on this in a flash, their test pilots in both the simulators and airplanes, digging into each and every conceivable inflight event possible.

We have met the enemy and he is us!

[Busher]

Second hand from a former USAF friend:

Brilliant observations throughout.

For so many years, air accidents were completely and thoroughly investigated to determine a "probable cause"; all in the interest of advancing air safety through improvements in the machines and the pilots that operate them.
At least in the case of these two accidents, that level of investigation does not seem to be happening. Air safety is never enhanced when vested interests influence the conclusions.
When with the ALPA tech/safety committee years ago, the NTSB representatives teaching us a course on accident investigation stressed in our training that you must always complete the work without bias or foregone conclusion. To those who are totally confident in their "opinion", trust me; the world is not flat.

[Puma44]

Agree.  Sometimes we can’t get out of our own way fast enough.

[bustr]

Vriacu,

ACE does not care about the pilots of the two MAX that went down or he would have stopped posting in these MAX posts you, Puma, and others who have been real Military and commercial pilots are posting in. My father was a commercial pilot after he retired form the Air Force and I could not avoid being in the company of pilots becasue of that. And I've flown with them. ACE has no clue about commercial aviation, or the fact you as pilot and crew are held to higher standards by the profession becasue each of you is seconds away from being mass murders of hundreds the moment you push the throttle forward. Those mistakes are not up for snowflake internet moral high ground competitions that ACE keeps trolling you with. ACE just wants to win his whizzing match with you and has thrown the last tactic of internet cowards by claiming the moral high ground by agreeing to disagree. Those pilots are dead and MUDERED hundreds of innocent passengers becasue THEY SCREWED UP. None of those passengers signed away their right to live as part of the cost to get a seat on those flights. Pilots don't get do overs the moment they kill passengers if the are alive or under a head stone because gravity never stops trying to kill crew and passengers.

As for Boeing and their MAX fleet being grounded with no real problem found. Boeing made a $100,000 donation to Trump's election committee. Grounding the fleet is to save Boeing from being financially ruined by the Dems in the House for that. That is why Nikkie Hailey was made a member of the board. Boeing is one of a few companies that has an impact on the GDP and Wall street by itself. The Dems will ruin Boeing if they can through unelected bureaucrats becasue it's coming up on Trump's reelection time and the economy is booming which is bad for them. Grounding the fleet is also avoiding the Dems becoming the designers of the next social justice globally inclusive airliner economic failure. If the Dems can create the optics the MAX is dangerous becasue Boeing gave Trump $100,000 to help get him elected, they will hammer that and Boeing into bankruptcy. The FAA is not full of Trump lovers nor is the TSA. It got really quiet quickly with the media about the pilots and crew from the two crashes while the focus was left pointing at the MAX and Boeing. American pilots have been flying the MAX for years safely coast to coast right up to the fleet being grounded. Either we have demigods for pilots in the US or, the MAX is safe to fly.

[DmonSlyr]

This happening to Boeing might be about the money, but for different reasons than you would expect.

 Especially crazy when someone goes on Reddit and "predicts" the crash a few days beforehand.

Here is Outerlight's perspective about this. I consider him a pretty solid researcher.

https://youtu.be/pQfzGN4b7-I

[ACE]

Vriacu,

ACE does not care about the pilots of the two MAX that went down or he would have stopped posting in these MAX posts you, Puma, and others who have been real Military and commercial pilots are posting in. My father was a commercial pilot after he retired form the Air Force and I could not avoid being in the company of pilots becasue of that. And I've flown with them. ACE has no clue about commercial aviation, or the fact you as pilot and crew are held to higher standards by the profession becasue each of you is seconds away from being mass murders of hundreds the moment you push the throttle forward. Those mistakes are not up for snowflake internet moral high ground competitions that ACE keeps trolling you with. ACE just wants to win his whizzing match with you and has thrown the last tactic of internet cowards by claiming the moral high ground by agreeing to disagree. Those pilots are dead and MUDERED hundreds of innocent passengers becasue THEY SCREWED UP. None of those passengers signed away their right to live as part of the cost to get a seat on those flights. Pilots don't get do overs the moment they kill passengers if the are alive or under a head stone because gravity never stops trying to kill crew and passengers.

As for Boeing and their MAX fleet being grounded with no real problem found. Boeing made a $100,000 donation to Trump's election committee. Grounding the fleet is to save Boeing from being financially ruined by the Dems in the House for that. That is why Nikkie Hailey was made a member of the board. Boeing is one of a few companies that has an impact on the GDP and Wall street by itself. The Dems will ruin Boeing if they can through unelected bureaucrats becasue it's coming up on Trump's reelection time and the economy is booming which is bad for them. Grounding the fleet is also avoiding the Dems becoming the designers of the next social justice globally inclusive airliner economic failure. If the Dems can create the optics the MAX is dangerous becasue Boeing gave Trump $100,000 to help get him elected, they will hammer that and Boeing into bankruptcy. The FAA is not full of Trump lovers nor is the TSA. It got really quiet quickly with the media about the pilots and crew from the two crashes while the focus was left pointing at the MAX and Boeing. American pilots have been flying the MAX for years safely coast to coast right up to the fleet being grounded. Either we have demigods for pilots in the US or, the MAX is safe to fly.

You got it all figured out

[pembquist]

I wish skuzzy was still here. It’s like a car crash, I don’t want to look but I can’t stop myself.

[Vraciu]

Vriacu,

ACE does not care about the pilots of the two MAX that went down or he would have stopped posting in these MAX posts you, Puma, and others who have been real Military and commercial pilots are posting in. My father was a commercial pilot after he retired form the Air Force and I could not avoid being in the company of pilots becasue of that. And I've flown with them. ACE has no clue about commercial aviation, or the fact you as pilot and crew are held to higher standards by the profession becasue each of you is seconds away from being mass murders of hundreds the moment you push the throttle forward. Those mistakes are not up for snowflake internet moral high ground competitions that ACE keeps trolling you with. ACE just wants to win his whizzing match with you and has thrown the last tactic of internet cowards by claiming the moral high ground by agreeing to disagree. Those pilots are dead and MUDERED hundreds of innocent passengers becasue THEY SCREWED UP. None of those passengers signed away their right to live as part of the cost to get a seat on those flights. Pilots don't get do overs the moment they kill passengers if the are alive or under a head stone because gravity never stops trying to kill crew and passengers.

As for Boeing and their MAX fleet being grounded with no real problem found. Boeing made a $100,000 donation to Trump's election committee. Grounding the fleet is to save Boeing from being financially ruined by the Dems in the House for that. That is why Nikkie Hailey was made a member of the board. Boeing is one of a few companies that has an impact on the GDP and Wall street by itself. The Dems will ruin Boeing if they can through unelected bureaucrats becasue it's coming up on Trump's reelection time and the economy is booming which is bad for them. Grounding the fleet is also avoiding the Dems becoming the designers of the next social justice globally inclusive airliner economic failure. If the Dems can create the optics the MAX is dangerous becasue Boeing gave Trump $100,000 to help get him elected, they will hammer that and Boeing into bankruptcy. The FAA is not full of Trump lovers nor is the TSA. It got really quiet quickly with the media about the pilots and crew from the two crashes while the focus was left pointing at the MAX and Boeing. American pilots have been flying the MAX for years safely coast to coast right up to the fleet being grounded. Either we have demigods for pilots in the US or, the MAX is safe to fly.

Well said.   Thank you for making the effort to do so.   You speak from a position of understanding and it shows.    I can’t add anything more to what you’ve said—it’s spot on.    Thanks again.