Author Topic: Interesting read on 38  (Read 8378 times)

Offline hazmatt

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Interesting read on 38
« on: August 11, 2019, 04:36:43 PM »
Why the P-38 Flunked in Europe (Robert F. Dorr)

Celebrated as one of the Pacific War’s best fighters, Lockheed’s Lightning earned a less-than enviable reputation in European air combat.
The American fighter pilot spotted two indistinct shapes cutting diagonally across a road just slightly above and in front of him. They were blemishes in motion. Twelve o’clock high, he thought. He rechecked his armament switches, rammed his throttles to full power and went down low, as low as he dared, hugging the treetops. The afternoon shadow of his P-38 Lightning raced across French hedgerows and fields as the pilot sought to identify the other two aircraft. He wanted them to be Focke-Wulf Fw-190s, falling nicely into the crosshairs of his nose-mounted 20mm cannon and four .50-caliber machine guns.

Captain Robin Olds kicked left rudder, slid his pipper across the nearest plane’s left wing and, in an instant of epiphany, saw the Iron Cross painted on the rear fuselage. Until that instant, he hadn’t been certain the planes were German. Olds shot down one of the Fw-190s moments later, then followed the second into a violent left break, fired and watched the pilot bail out. It was August 14, 1944, and Olds had just used his P-38 Lightning to rack up the first two of his eventual 13 World War II aerial victories.
“I loved the P-38 but I got those kills in spite of the airplane, not because of it,” Olds recalled. “The fact is, the P-38 Lightning was too much airplane for a new kid and a full-time job for even a mature and experienced fighter pilot. Our enemies had difficulty defeating the P-38 but, as much as we gloried in it, we were defeating ourselves with this airplane.”
It was, Olds hastened to add, “the most beautiful plane of our generation.” And it fought well in the Mediterranean and the Pacific. So what happened in northern Europe, and how could things have gone so wrong?

A survey of Stateside training bases in 1941 showed that 87 percent of prospective pilots requested to be assigned to the big, sleek, twin-engine Lockheed Lightning. “We were in awe of the P-38,” said future ace Jack Ilfrey. “It looked like a beautiful monster.” “If you were a boy in America, you wanted to fly it,” said another future ace, Winton “Bones” Marshall. “If you played with Dinky metal toys and balsa wood airplane models, you wanted to fly it.” On the eve of Pearl Harbor, the P-38 captured the imagination of young Americans like no other fighter. Eighth Air Force commander Lt. Gen. James H. “Jimmy” Doolittle would later call the P-38 “the sweetest-flying plane in the sky.”

With tricycle gear, twin booms and a centerline fuselage pod brimming with guns, the P-38 was powered by two 1,600-hp Allison V-1710-111/113 liquid-cooled engines driving three-bladed, 9-foot Curtiss Electric propellers. Although a fully loaded Lightning weighed more than 10 tons—nearly twice as much as a P-51 Mustang—a skilled pilot could fling the P-38 around like a lightweight. The problem was that while American pilots were generally well trained, they weren’t well trained for a complex twin-engine fighter.

Struggling to keep the air campaign over Europe alive in the face of disastrous bomber losses, the U.S. Army Air Forces rushed two P-38 combat groups to England. On October 15, 1943, the 55th Fighter Group became the first to conduct operations. The Lightning men mixed it up with Me-109s and Fw-190s on November 6, and racked up their first aerial victories. “We were arrayed against the Luftwaffe and they were facing us head-on,” one of the pilots said, “and we were not winning.”

The P-38 performed usefully but suffered from a number of problems. Its Allison engines consistently threw rods, swallowed valves and fouled plugs, while their intercoolers often ruptured under sustained high boost and turbocharger regulators froze, sometimes causing catastrophic failures.

Arrival of the newer P-38J to fill in behind the P-38H was supposed to help, but did not help enough. The J model’s enlarged radiators were trouble-prone. Improperly blended British fuel exacerbated the problems: Anti-knock lead compounds literally seethed out and became separated in the Allison’s induction system at extreme low temperatures. This could cause detonation and rapid engine failure, especially at the high power settings demanded for combat.

The P-38’s General Electric turbo-supercharger sometimes got stuck in over-boosted or under-boosted mode. This occurred mainly when the fighter was flown in the freezing cold at altitudes approaching 30,000 feet, which was the standard situation in the European air war. Another difficulty was that early P-38 versions had only one generator, and losing the associated engine meant the pilot had to rely on battery power.

In an article on ausairpower.net, Carlo Kopp noted that in their early days in the European theater, “Many of the P-38s assigned to escort missions were forced to abort and return to base. Most of the aborts were related to engines coming apart in flight….[due to] intercoolers that chilled the fuel/air mixture too much. Radiators that lowered engine temps below normal operating minimums. Oil coolers that could congeal the oil to sludge. These problems could have been fixed at the squadron level. Yet, they were not.”

Eighth Air Force historian Roger Freeman described how bravery plus the P-38 was not enough during a mission on November 13, 1943, “an unlucky day for the 55th. In typical English November weather, damp and overcast, forty-eight P-38s set out to escort bombers on the target leg of a mission to Bremen; one turned back before the enemy coast was crossed and two more aborted later. At 26,000 feet over Germany, pilots shivered in bitterly cold cockpits, flying conditions were unusually bad, and the probability of mechanical troubles at that temperature did not help. Again outnumbered, the 55th was heavily engaged near the target as it strove to defend the bombers, for which it paid dearly. Seven P-38s fell, five to enemy fighters and the others to unknown causes.” Another 16 Lightnings limped home with battle damage.

Things got better. The arrival of the improved P-38J-25 and P-38L models, modified on the production line based on lessons learned in Europe, helped, but problems remained. Lightning pilot 2nd Lt. Jim Kunkle of the 370th Fighter Group remembered: “The critical problem with us was we didn’t have much heat in the cockpit. On high altitude missions it was very cold. And we didn’t have the engine in front of us to help keep us warm. Bomber guys had those heated blue union suits that they wore but we tried heated clothing and it didn’t work for us.”

The only source of heat in the cockpit was warm air ducted from the engines, and it was little help. Lightning pilots suffered terribly. “Their hands and feet became numb with cold and in some instances frost-bitten; not infrequently a pilot was so weakened by conditions that he had to be assisted out of the cockpit upon return,” wrote Freeman.

Major General William Kepner, the fiery commanding general of VIII Fighter Command, wondered, as so many others did, why the P-38 wasn’t producing the results everyone wanted, and what to do about it. Asked to provide a written report, 20th Fighter Group commander Colonel Harold J. Rau did so reluctantly and only because he was ordered to.

“After flying the P-38 for a little over one hundred hours on combat missions it is my belief that the airplane, as it stands now, is too complicated for the ‘average’ pilot,” wrote Rau. “I want to put strong emphasis on the word ‘average,’ taking full consideration just how little combat training our pilots have before going on operational status.”

Rau wrote that he was being asked to put kids fresh from flight school into P-38 cockpits and it wasn’t working. He asked his boss to imagine “a pilot fresh out of flying school with about a total of twenty-five hours in a P-38, starting out on a combat mission.” Rau’s young pilot was on “auto lean and running on external tanks. His gun heater is off to relieve the load on his generator, which frequently gives out (under sustained heavy load). His sight is off to save burning out the bulb. His combat switch may or may not be on.” So, flying along in this condition, wrote Rau, the kid suddenly gets bounced by German fighters. Now he wonders what to do next.

“He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main [fuel tank],” Rau wrote. “So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches (valves) to main, turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight.” To future generations this would be called multi-tasking, and it was not what you wanted to be doing when Luftwaffe fighters were pouring down on you.

“At this point, he has probably been shot down,” Rau noted, “or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.”

Another P-38 pilot described the multi-tasking challenge this way: “When you reduce power you must pull back the throttle (manifold pressure) first, then the prop RPM, and then the mixture. To increase power you must first put the mixture rich, then increase prop RPM, then increase manifold pressure. If you don’t follow this order you can ruin the engine.” Rau added that in his own limited experience, his P-38 group had lost at least four pilots who, when bounced, took no evasive action. “The logical assumption is that they were so busy in the cockpit trying to get organized that they were shot down before they could get going,” he wrote.

Couldn't post all due to character limit. (full story in link)

https://www.historynet.com/p-38-flunked-europe.htm

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2019, 08:18:25 PM »
Lockheed’s Lightning earned a less-than enviable reputation in European air combat.


Thanks for the nice article.  Wholeheartedly agree.  You can come up with dozens of excuses, but the 47 and 51 did fine in the 8th, and the 38 did not.

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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2019, 11:06:31 PM »
 :cheesy:1) P-38K

2) Just shove everything forward at the same time.   Or you can “Climb the hill right to left, descend the hill left to right.”

3) The P-38 was pushing the limits of fighter design in its time.  The technological hurdles were not sufficiently overcome in time to make them preeminent in Europe, but make no mistake, the P-38 took the heaviest hits and softened up the Germans long before the Mustang arrived.   The Mustang benefited from the sacrifices of the P-38 groups. 

4) It was the PERFECT airplane to fight the Japanese in the Pacific Theater. 

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Offline Spikes

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 08:17:50 AM »
Interesting article. It really puts into perspective what they had to do at a moment's notice to be able to fight, and all we do is hit P for WEP. The P-38 would definitely be overwhelming for a new pilot, especially when you throw in all of the mechanical and technical problems it was plagued with early on.

I agree that it was great for the Pacific - but I'd say most if not all US fighters were superior to their Japanese counterparts from mid-1942/1943 on.
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Offline mikeWe9a

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 01:23:20 PM »
The P-38 also suffered from doctrinal and tactical issues that had nothing to do with the aircraft itself.  First, when the P-38s began long range escort, they were essentially the only aircraft capable of carrying out the task, and their numbers were far lower than the enemy defense units.  This meant that they were going to be significantly outnumbered.  Also, defensive doctrine dictated that the fighters stick with the bombers (similar to problems the Luftwaffe had during the Battle of Britain).  The arrival of the P-51B heralded a great increase in the numbers of escort fighters, which in turn corresponded to a change in tactics, allowing fighters to attack enemy aircraft ahead of the bombers, breaking up their attacks and pursuing them.  The invasion of Europe also secured bases closer to enemy targets, allowing the P-47 to carry out more escort missions deeper into enemy territory as well, further advancing the allies' advantage of numbers in the air war.


Mike

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 06:51:35 PM »
The P-38 also suffered from doctrinal and tactical issues that had nothing to do with the aircraft itself.  First, when the P-38s began long range escort, they were essentially the only aircraft capable of carrying out the task, and their numbers were far lower than the enemy defense units.  This meant that they were going to be significantly outnumbered.  Also, defensive doctrine dictated that the fighters stick with the bombers (similar to problems the Luftwaffe had during the Battle of Britain).  The arrival of the P-51B heralded a great increase in the numbers of escort fighters, which in turn corresponded to a change in tactics, allowing fighters to attack enemy aircraft ahead of the bombers, breaking up their attacks and pursuing them.  The invasion of Europe also secured bases closer to enemy targets, allowing the P-47 to carry out more escort missions deeper into enemy territory as well, further advancing the allies' advantage of numbers in the air war.


Mike

Absolutely. 
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2019, 09:00:13 PM »
Absolutely.


As I said.  Excuses.

The air war in Europe was won by the P-47.  The 51 got the glory, the 38 was the goat.  But the 47 killed the Luftwaffe's best and brightest, before the 51 had a chance to get there in numbers.

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Offline atlau

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 11:15:04 PM »
In reading about the 47 vs 51 I came across a line that said the 47m had air brakes... are those modelled in ah3?

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2019, 01:26:21 AM »

As I said.  Excuses.

The air war in Europe was won by the P-47.  The 51 got the glory, the 38 was the goat.  But the 47 killed the Luftwaffe's best and brightest, before the 51 had a chance to get there in numbers.

- oldman



As I said.  Excuses.

The air war in Europe was won by the P-47.  The 51 got the glory, the 38 was the goat.  But the 47 killed the Luftwaffe's best and brightest, before the 51 had a chance to get there in numbers.

- oldman



Bull.

The P-47 could barely get across the beach while the Lightning was taking the fight to Germany outnumbered 5:1 (and sometimes worse) against the peak-level Luftwaffe.

When daylight bombardment hung in the balance it was the P-38 that held the line.  It is by far the most underrated American fighter of the war, and quite possibly the most vital.  It had performance nothing else could match in many areas—all of them extremely useful.

The P-38 paved the way for the also-rans to follow along and steal the credit.  The P-38 also carried half the load of the long-range escort mission during the first part of 1944 when the Luftwaffe cratered, having born virtually all of it alone in mid- to late-1943.

Dogging on the P-38 in the ETO is an example of party-line parroting. 

The same kind of stupid decisions that hampered the P-38 also hampered the P-47.  These aren’t excuses, they’re reality.   Doolittle changed the paradigm, but by then the P-38’s ETO fate for high altitude escort had already been decided.   It’s too bad because it was one heck of an airplane.




« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 01:48:35 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline FLS

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2019, 07:36:22 AM »
In reading about the 47 vs 51 I came across a line that said the 47m had air brakes... are those modelled in ah3?

The P-47 has dive flaps not air brakes, same as the P-38.  They are modeled for compression relief. They let you dive a little faster before you lose pitch control.

Offline streakeagle

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 08:59:06 PM »
Robin Olds flew both in combat (both air-to-air and air-to-ground) and would take the P-51 over the P-38 any day of the week. I trust his judgement over armchair pilots like myself. If you want to argue about who decimated the Germans, all roads lead to the Eastern front that drained the Luftwaffe of pilots and planes, many of which were lost to obsolete aircraft. You don't win by flying expensive hi-tech planes like the P-38 or Me262. You win by with hordes of whatever you can get your hands on cheapest and fastest, hence the proliferation of obsolete aircraft throughout the war including types like the P-40. The P-51 was the F-16. The P-38 was the F-15. You could produce way more P-51s for way less money in way less time, and for the most part they were equal or better planes in the roles that were needed. Once the war in Europe was ending, the P-51s were heading that way, too... because we had a lot of them and they were fast and long ranged.

My biggest beef with the P-38 notwithstanding all the flaws already mentioned in the original post was the wing. It is the most important aspect of any aircraft. The P-38's wing was not suited for high speed flight, so much so that it needed a brake to keep it from going too fast at a time when all the other fighters were already faster and trying to approach 500 mph as the war went on.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2019, 09:23:19 PM »
Bull.

The P-47 could barely get across the beach while the Lightning was taking the fight to Germany outnumbered 5:1 (and sometimes worse) against the peak-level Luftwaffe.

When daylight bombardment hung in the balance it was the P-38 that held the line.  It is by far the most underrated American fighter of the war, and quite possibly the most vital.  It had performance nothing else could match in many areas—all of them extremely useful.

The P-38 paved the way for the also-rans to follow along and steal the credit.  The P-38 also carried half the load of the long-range escort mission during the first part of 1944 when the Luftwaffe cratered, having born virtually all of it alone in mid- to late-1943.

Dogging on the P-38 in the ETO is an example of party-line parroting. 

The same kind of stupid decisions that hampered the P-38 also hampered the P-47.  These aren’t excuses, they’re reality.   Doolittle changed the paradigm, but by then the P-38’s ETO fate for high altitude escort had already been decided.   It’s too bad because it was one heck of an airplane.


...um...

I think most historians agree that the cream of the Luftwaffe was defeated by the end of the Berlin raids in early March, 1944.  From 1943 through the beginning of the Berlin raids in March, 1944 there were two P-38 groups in the 8th, the 55th and 20th.  Two.  The third gruoup, the 364th (P-38s), flew its first combat mission at the beginning of the Berlin raids (and lost 16 planes that month).  During the first of the Bigweek raids (in February, 44) the 8th sent fewer than 100 P-38s, fewer than 75 P-51s, but over 650 P-47s.  The 4th FG didn't fly its first P-51 mission until March 2, well after Bigweek.  By contrast, this was perhaps the height of the 56th and 78th fighter groups, with Gabreski, Mahurin, Johnson, the other Johnson, Schilling, Roberts...the list goes on.  It isn't like the only combat occurred directly over Berlin.  The escort range problem was solved by a combination of drop tanks and sending the fighter groups to rendezvous with the bomber formations at different locations along the bombers' routes.  In the spring of 1944 the P-47 could make it to within 70 miles of Berlin using these techniques. 

Whatever reasons people pick to excuse the P-38s, those groups didn't begin to succeed - by comparison with their 47 and 51 colleagues - until they switched to P-51s.  The 38 just was not a useful high-altitude fighter, at least not until the war was nearly over in Europe, and by then the 38 had been banished from the Eighth.

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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2019, 11:16:11 PM »

...um...

I think most historians agree that the cream of the Luftwaffe was defeated by the end of the Berlin raids in early March, 1944. 

Uhm....   You’re not listening.   

The P-38 did the heavy lifting in 1943.   The Mustang glory days of 1944 were alongside the P-38.   The Mustang didn’t break the back of the LW, but the case can be credibly made that the P-38 did.   The Mustang simply helped (alongside the P-38 and to some extent the Jug) as it ramped up from 1944 on.

The Mustang (and Thunderbolt for that matter) benefited from the learning curve, sacrifices, and killing performed by the P-38 on deep penetration escort missions to the heart of Germany when it was THE FIRST AND ONLY airplane that could do it.

Quote
From 1943 through the beginning of the Berlin raids in March, 1944 there were two P-38 groups in the 8th...

Key words: In the 8th. 

But two groups that can reach Germany and protect bombers are ultimately far better than six groups that can’t, particularly when the job is long range bomber escort.   


Quote
In the spring of 1944 the P-47 could make it to within 70 miles of Berlin using these techniques. 

Which were bloody darned useless in 1943 (since they didn’t “exist” yet) when the Lightning groups were going it alone while the Jug pilots were back at base (out of gas) having a beer.


Quote
Whatever reasons people pick to excuse the P-38s, those groups didn't begin to succeed - by comparison with their 47 and 51 colleagues - until they switched to P-51s.  The 38 just was not a useful high-altitude fighter, at least not until the war was nearly over in Europe, and by then the 38 had been banished from the Eighth.

- oldman


Blah blah blah.   The P-38 was sawing the Luftwaffe to pieces with great success out of the Med—including to Germany.   The Eighth Air Force was clearly lacking in many areas it appears where operating the P-38.   Thus the flaw is not the airplane. 

Never mind that the Ninth AF was more than happy to take the castoff P-38s and P-47s in trade for their promised P-51s.

And your vaunted 4th FG was whining like a bunch of babies about the P-47, so it must have clearly been a POS because of their subsequent success in the P-51.  /sarc
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 12:42:25 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2019, 11:23:14 PM »
Robin Olds flew both in combat (both air-to-air and air-to-ground) and would take the P-51 over the P-38 any day of the week. I trust his judgement over armchair pilots like myself. If you want to argue about who decimated the Germans, all roads lead to the Eastern front that drained the Luftwaffe of pilots and planes, many of which were lost to obsolete aircraft. You don't win by flying expensive hi-tech planes like the P-38 or Me262. You win by with hordes of whatever you can get your hands on cheapest and fastest, hence the proliferation of obsolete aircraft throughout the war including types like the P-40. The P-51 was the F-16. The P-38 was the F-15. You could produce way more P-51s for way less money in way less time, and for the most part they were equal or better planes in the roles that were needed. Once the war in Europe was ending, the P-51s were heading that way, too... because we had a lot of them and they were fast and long ranged.

My biggest beef with the P-38 notwithstanding all the flaws already mentioned in the original post was the wing. It is the most important aspect of any aircraft. The P-38's wing was not suited for high speed flight, so much so that it needed a brake to keep it from going too fast at a time when all the other fighters were already faster and trying to approach 500 mph as the war went on.


The wing was fine.   The airplane was operating in a regime that wasn’t well understood.   Once it was the airplane was modified to deal with it and it could handle any piston airplane the Germans sent at it.

As for Robin Olds, he is only one man.   His views on the P-38* are not monolithically shared by the broader group of P-38 aces in the ETO, and certainly not in the Pacific.

It was a great machine hampered by terrible leadership.   Was it perfect?   No, certainly not until the late-model Js came along, but it provided escort to places nobody else could go and fought the critical battles of 1943 outnumbered and held the line.    The P-51 couldn’t do much of anything better than a P-38 could+.



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« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 11:29:06 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Interesting read on 38
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2019, 09:54:23 AM »


As for Robin Olds, he is only one man.   His views on the P-38* are not monolithically shared by the broader group of P-38 aces in the ETO, and certainly not in the Pacific.

...



*+ But I happen to love the Embraer Legacy 650 compared to the G550 which outperforms it in most respects.   Why?  Reliability, cockpit size, pilot comfort, and systems.    Is it the jet to reach Lebanon nonstop from Texas?   No.    I like it any way.   So goes the P-38 vs the P-51.

In other words, Olds preferred the Mustang but that doesn't mean it was because it was the better performing airplane.  In many areas it was not.
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