Interesting read on 38

[Oldman731]

The Mustang didn’t break the back of the LW, but the case can be credibly made that the P-38 did. 

Hey, that's great!  I've been waiting for years - decades, even - to see someone show that the P-38 broke the back of the Luftwaffe.  ESPECIALLY in light of the records of the 20th and 55th FGs.

- oldman

[Vraciu]

Hey, that's great!  I've been waiting for years - decades, even - to see someone show that the P-38 broke the back of the Luftwaffe.  ESPECIALLY in light of the records of the 20th and 55th FGs.

- oldman

You have the right to be wrong. 

The P-38 was there when it counted.  Without it the strategic bomber offensive would have collapsed.  Your fixation on only the 8th reveals a massive blindspot worthy of note, but hey, don't let facts get in your way!

The Germans didn't have pilots to throw away.  Every P-38 kill in 1942-43 was worth ten in late-1944.  Hell, the entire Western Front at one point was only defended by a couple hundred German pilots.    Just like the Japanese in the Solomons, the critical battles in 1943 killed Axis pilots that couldn't be replaced.   

The Mustang gets too much credit.   The P-38 not enough.    The Jug?  Okay if you wanted to fight over the French coast, but by the time it could finally go anywhere the P-38 had already done the hard part (for a full year before the Jug even showed up, btw) all the while outnumbered, hampered by bad tactics, and forced by the very nature of the endeavor into a steep learning curve.

[bozon]

The P-38 was a poor high altitude fighter. No going around that. In the ETO high altitude escorts was the main mission, hence the P-38 was not particularly good at it. It was assigned this role because there was no one else. Once P-47s matured and fitted with external tanks, they pretty much replaced all but 2 FGs in the 8th airforce. P-47s counted for a hell of a lot more kills than the 38 during that critical time when the LW was still in its prime. Once P51s started to arrive it was clear that they were the better tool for the job, and not less important, the most economic tool for the job - costing half a P-38 and significantly cheaper than a P-47 (especially the operating costs).

In the MTO and PTO the main mission was not high altitude escorts. Combat happened at lower altitudes where the P-38 could shine. In the 9th airforce, combat happened at fairly low altitudes and the missions allowed the P-38 to show its versatility as a ground pounder that can instantly turn into a formidable fighter after releasing its bombs - this was perfect for the 38 and conditions at which it was better than the 47 and 51.

[save]

The P38 was the best they had at the time for escorts, even though german planes could always disengage from a fight by diving, something P38 could not follow, when odds were stacked against them.

German pilots liked the idea of having 2 engines flying over water.

[Ack-Ack]

In other words, Olds preferred the Mustang but that doesn't mean it was because it was the better performing airplane.  In many areas it was not.

Many years ago, the 479th had a mini-Con and we were able to meet Robin Olds.  He was asked the same question by the leader of our little virtual squadron and Old's answer wasn't clear cut as someone stated.  He said it depended on the circumstances.  For ground attack sorties, he would have preferred to be in the P-38, to him the P-51 was too vulnerable to ground fire and not suited for ground attack missions.  For air to air engagements, he preferred the P-51, because it was much more simple to fly but over all, he thought the P-38 was a dream to fly.  Remember, like most of the 479th, he had extensive training and flight time in the P-38 before they left to the ETO.

One thing he said that has stuck with me all these years is that the P-38, at least in the 8th AF, suffered as much from the bomber mentality of the 8th high command than from any mechanical or technical failures on the part of the P-38.  While the history of the P-38 in the ETO might not have been stellar, it shined in all the other theaters.

[Oldman731]

The P-38 was there when it counted.  Without it the strategic bomber offensive would have collapsed. 

Well.  You're just making stuff up now.

- oldman

[Vraciu]

The P38 was the best they had at the time for escorts, even though german planes could always disengage from a fight by diving, something P38 could not follow, when odds were stacked against them.

German pilots liked the idea of having 2 engines flying over water.

And when a German dove away he was no longer a threat to a bomber.  Mission accomplished.   Not being a smartass, just making a point.   

[Vraciu]

Many years ago, the 479th had a mini-Con and we were able to meet Robin Olds.  He was asked the same question by the leader of our little virtual squadron and Old's answer wasn't clear cut as someone stated.  He said it depended on the circumstances.  For ground attack sorties, he would have preferred to be in the P-38, to him the P-51 was too vulnerable to ground fire and not suited for ground attack missions.  For air to air engagements, he preferred the P-51, because it was much more simple to fly but over all, he thought the P-38 was a dream to fly.  Remember, like most of the 479th, he had extensive training and flight time in the P-38 before they left to the ETO.

One thing he said that has stuck with me all these years is that the P-38, at least in the 8th AF, suffered as much from the bomber mentality of the 8th high command than from any mechanical or technical failures on the part of the P-38.  While the history of the P-38 in the ETO might not have been stellar, it shined in all the other theaters.

Interesting info—and far more balanced than some are leading us to believe.   As for leadership failures, he was definitely one to spot those as he made a career out of calling out those types.   I agree with him completely.   Thanks for sharing that.    Olds would have been a neat guy to meet. 

I met a couple of P-38 aces (among many other pilots/aces, both Axis and Allied)  back around 1992-93 at a banquet I attended while an undergrad.   They had effusive praise for the airplane, as one might imagine.    Also met Blakeslee there.  I’ve told that story before.   Hilarious guy. 

[Vraciu]

Well.  You're just making stuff up now.

- oldman

Yeah, okay then.   Good comeback.  /sarcastic blue

BTW, Schweinfurt and Regensburg just called.   They want to know how sustainable your 25-plus percent single-mission heavy bomber loss rate is. 

[Drano]

Agreed. The P-38 is awesome. Not quite as awesome as Zack but close!

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

[Shuffler]

It is amazing how few parts you really need to keep one in the air.

[Vraciu]

It is amazing how few parts you really need to keep one in the air.

 

[hazmatt]

I read the book "A Higher Calling" a while back and I remember a part where he and his wingman were bounced a flight of 38's and knocked some down, he mentioned something to the affect them not fighting back very quickly. It seems that the pilots may have been to busy flying the plane. Wish I could find the exact quote but I gave the book away.

[save]

And when a German dove away he was no longer a threat to a bomber.  Mission accomplished.   Not being a smartass, just making a point.   

True, remember though this was written after the war, interviewing surviving GAF pilots.

They compared the P38 with P47,P51, as the latter two could hunt them down and kill them in a dive.

[hazmatt]

Thanks. I'll delete it. why would you quote it though? lol