Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "LITTLE GIRL" Leroy Grosshuesch

[Vraciu]

It looks like the crew member who painted the words Little Girl, then used the same paint to broaden and darken the forward boarder line to give a visual continuity to the letters. Visually it gives the size of the letter script a boarder to help it look like it belongs in that spot. Kind of like hand painted signs on houses and buildings in the US during that era. The painter framed the picture which helps draw your eye to the letters. Contrast that to the rest of the tarmac line up and you see the standard boarder is the thinner less obvious boarder line.

I think the authors of some of the color profile plates either never saw this large closeup picture or, themselves wanted aesthetic continuity versus faithful historic reproduction. Given the angle of the sun based on the prop shadow and what we know about the smoothness of the skin cross section at the juncture the line is following. That is not a shadow but an intentional widening of the line.

Makes sense.   I think you are correct.   

[Vraciu]

This link has a ton of potentially relevant photos in it.   I can’t see past the watermark can anyone else?


http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=19475

[Devil 505]

It looks like the crew member who painted the words Little Girl, then used the same paint to broaden and darken the forward boarder line to give a visual continuity to the letters. Visually it gives the size of the letter script a boarder to help it look like it belongs in that spot. Kind of like hand painted signs on houses and buildings in the US during that era. The painter framed the picture which helps draw your eye to the letters. Contrast that to the rest of the tarmac line up and you see the standard boarder is the thinner less obvious boarder line.

I think the authors of some of the color profile plates either never saw this large closeup picture or, themselves wanted aesthetic continuity versus faithful historic reproduction. Given the angle of the sun based on the prop shadow and what we know about the smoothness of the skin cross section at the juncture the line is following. That is not a shadow but an intentional widening of the line.

What it looks like to me is that the panels with the bold border were taken from a different airplane. This photo may not show the original "Little Girl" but a replacement airframe where those panels were transferred from the original.

[Vraciu]

What it looks like to me is that the panels with the bold border were taken from a different airplane. This photo may not show the original "Little Girl" but a replacement airframe where those panels were transferred from the original.

A definite possibility.   

So which way should I skin it?

According to one source His original P-51 was damaged and he switched to another in which he scored his last victory.   That could be this one. 

July 30, 1945 - “I had sunk the destroyer, but my poor P-51 was so riddled with shrapnel and debris from the explosion that it had to be scrapped.” - Lee Grosshuesch

[Devil 505]

A definite possibility.   

So which way should I skin it?

According to one source His original P-51 was damaged and he switched to another in which he scored his last victory.   That could be this one.

Tough call. On one hand, there only seems to be photo reference for this plane as seen here. On the other, drawing an accurate, but inconsistent black border will seriously trigger some OCD.

[Vraciu]

Tough call. On one hand, there only seems to be photo reference for this plane as seen here. On the other, drawing an accurate, but inconsistent black border will seriously trigger some OCD.

Lol!   No doubt!   

[bustr]

So what, authenticity is up held if you go with his first P51 or the second where the panels were added on from the first P51. You have a picture of the second P51 while you would have to conjecture that the boarder line on the first P51 was thicker visa the ground crew who painted the lettering for Little Girl. If the supposition is true that the panels were recovered from the first P51. And if a cow is launched over it, you have grounds to pound the cow launcer with your choice of authenticity. At this point in the history of AH3, other than skinners, do you really think anyone will notice.....

[Vraciu]

So what, authenticity is up held if you go with his first P51 or the second where the panels were added on from the first P51. You have a picture of the second P51 while you would have to conjecture that the boarder line on the first P51 was thicker visa the ground crew who painted the lettering for Little Girl. If the supposition is true that the panels were recovered from the first P51. And if a cow is launched over it, you have grounds to pound the cow launcer with your choice of authenticity. At this point in the history of AH3, other than skinners, do you really think anyone will notice.....

Lol, true. 

I just want to get it right.  This is the maddening part of doing some of these skins.   The source material is often lacking.   Drives me nuts but it is what we are stuck with.   I suppose conjecture comes in either way one goes here.

[Mister Fork]

Lol, true. 

I just want to get it right.  This is the maddening part of doing some of these skins.   The source material is often lacking.   Drives me nuts but it is what we are stuck with.   I suppose conjecture comes in either way one goes here.

I remember when doing research on several airplanes a while back, it drove me nuts that a picture would show the aircraft painted one way, and another photo shows another of the exact same aircraft but with variances from the original photo we were using as main reference.  For one aircraft, it was when they were transferred to a new location and the airplane got a different paint scheme...then it hit me, specific timeframes impact the aircraft paintjob. We had one pilot who went through FOUR Mustangs in a matter of a year. Each one looked a little different - it drove us nuts.

So - I guess the question is Vraciu - do we paint on a general impression of the aircraft based on the pictures to represent the pilot and his bird, or do we focus on a specific timeframe on a particular aircraft?  Given the swath of info of certain well documented pilots (like Lee) do we just pick a picture, a series of pictures, or just pick a date and run with it? 

[Vraciu]

Agree.   Guys with long careers had airplanes that changed dramatically over time.  George Preddy’s CRIPES series is a perfect example. 

In Lee’s case, there may be more evidence photographically but it isn’t anywhere I can find it, so it becomes a SWAG. 

[Devil 505]

I remember when doing research on several airplanes a while back, it drove me nuts that a picture would show the aircraft painted one way, and another photo shows another of the exact same aircraft but with variances from the original photo we were using as main reference.  For one aircraft, it was when they were transferred to a new location and the airplane got a different paint scheme...then it hit me, specific timeframes impact the aircraft paintjob. We had one pilot who went through FOUR Mustangs in a matter of a year. Each one looked a little different - it drove us nuts.

So - I guess the question is Vraciu - do we paint on a general impression of the aircraft based on the pictures to represent the pilot and his bird, or do we focus on a specific timeframe on a particular aircraft?  Given the swath of info of certain well documented pilots (like Lee) do we just pick a picture, a series of pictures, or just pick a date and run with it?

I have a very similar situation with a P-40 I'm working on. One photo shows the plane's port side from early in it's career with simple U.S. roundels and another photo shows the same plane later with U.S. roundels with white bars and more elaborate theater markings - on the starboard side. Also, the kill tally shown on each side is different.

[lyric1]

This should help with your decision making found a reference for Little Girl 1946 the image was taken. A lot of changes would have taken place from the end of the war to the aircraft in the image below. Personally I think from the link you posted of the photos during the war of the other planes I would think that is probably the most correct version.

Make it like the profile. 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-15-daniels-album-irumagawa-afb-1946-35th-fighter-group-56219779.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=06E118E3-80D3-40D1-8DB3-37BA2B437EB9&p=295776&n=30&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3Dbar%26st%3D0%26sortby%3D2%26qt%3D35th%2520fighter%2520group%26qt_raw%3D35th%2520fighter%2520group%26qn%3D%26lic%3D3%26edrf%3D0%26mr%3D0%26pr%3D0%26aoa%3D1%26creative%3D%26videos%3D%26nu%3D%26ccc%3D%26bespoke%3D%26apalib%3D%26ag%3D0%26hc%3D0%26et%3D0x000000000000000000000%26vp%3D0%26loc%3D0%26ot%3D0%26imgt%3D0%26dtfr%3D%26dtto%3D%26size%3D0xFF%26blackwhite%3D%26cutout%3D%26archive%3D1%26name%3D%26groupid%3D%26pseudoid%3D%26userid%3D%26id%3D%26a%3D%26xstx%3D0%26cbstore%3D1%26resultview%3DsortbyPopular%26lightbox%3D%26gname%3D%26gtype%3D%26apalic%3D%26tbar%3D1%26pc%3D%26simid%3D%26cap%3D1%26customgeoip%3D%26vd%3D0%26cid%3D%26pe%3D%26so%3D%26lb%3D%26pl%3D0%26plno%3D%26fi%3D0%26langcode%3Den%26upl%3D0%26cufr%3D%26cuto%3D%26howler%3D%26cvrem%3D0%26cvtype%3D0%26cvloc%3D0%26cl%3D0%26upfr%3D%26upto%3D%26primcat%3D%26seccat%3D%26cvcategory%3D*

[Mister Fork]

In that case Lyric/Vraciu - would it be a simple light blue ring around the nose cone just behind the prop then instead of a black one?

[Vraciu]

In that case Lyric/Vraciu - would it be a simple light blue ring around the nose cone just behind the prop then instead of a black one?

Could be. 


Thanks everyone for the input.   I wasn’t aware the closeup was from ‘46. 

[ctaggart1]

My grandfather was the mechanic on this plane in WWII. He was part of the Occupational Force and I have two photos of of this plane sitting on a tarmac 1 with my Grandfather and the Pilot as well as one with the plane on its own and the Tail number is clearly 33. I also somewhat disagree with the color of the two stripes and what they cross through etc they look, in black and white like if they were blue they would be light colored, I was guessing them as yellow because of how light they appear in the black and white photos. I am including an incomplete screenshot of the plane. Please credit the Taggart family if there is any public use of the photo. Please note the outline around the Text "Little Girl" Also note the color outline that runs around the canopy just below it which appears to be the same color as the two angled stripes and the apparently very light colored or white line that runs around the fuselage where the black stripes meet the aluminum color as well as the US Army Air corps star how the white bars that generally are shown forming a circle a bit outside of the star are actually very close to or are actually touching the tips of the starts fore and aft. I am adding more screenshots. Also the "portrayed as blue" area just aft of the propeller cone has a much thinner and tapered dark separating line than is shown in many of the illustrations seen in the above replys with links and what not.