Author Topic: The future of Aces High is on Facebook  (Read 12547 times)

Offline Wiley

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #90 on: November 29, 2019, 04:09:13 PM »
I agree if you are talking about reversing the negative trend line. 

I was shooting more for stabilizing the trend with maybe mild improvement while still keeping the fundamental nature of the game the same.


 If I were Hitech, I would be looking to place Aces High into a low energy orbit and start focusing on applying his knowledge and experience towards another game where he would have more design freedom and not a entrenched community of old farts still living on their memories of AW pathologically hostile to change.  They have Aces High, and it is pretty much the pinnacle of that genre.  So leave them that to enjoy and shore it up best as possible with least amount of work and focus on a new adventure. 

I mean there is WO:P.  Not really the direction I would have gone.  ;). But I get the feeling that is not nearly finished and he has some interesting plans up his sleeve with that one so I am withholding judgement. 

I'd love to see him consider a offline single-player sim at some point.  I think the main reason everyone has heard of IL2 and no one has heard of Aces High is because IL2 is a stand-alone sim.  There is a several orders of magnitude difference between the number of people out there who enjoy plinking around in an offline sim vs wanting to compete player-vs-player online. IL2 has a slight advantage on graphics but the FM seem similar to me.   I think a lot of the advantage in graphics is because AH is using a generic modular component terrain instead of hand shaping a specific world.  HTC couldn't compete in the AAA space, but might could carve out a small value-priced narrow niche of under-served subjects.  IL2 started with the Sturmovik, maybe HTC creates a JU-87 study sim.  :cool: STUKA PILOT!  It could include a 1 month free in Aces High as a bonus. 

Or maybe they just add another obscure French or Italian fighter to the AH hangar and that will turn everything around.  Or just throw some money at advertising. ;)

If I were HT I'd sell the FM for retirement money so I wouldn't have to deal with all of us.  But that's just me. ;)

edit: Ugh... considering what you typed there a bit more, that sounds an AWFUL lot like what WBs does.  Box game every once in a while, and keep the arenas going.  It hasn't worked spectacularly well for them.

Wiley.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 04:15:26 PM by Wiley »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #91 on: November 29, 2019, 04:14:05 PM »
If I were HT I'd sell the FM for retirement money so I wouldn't have to deal with all of us.  But that's just me. ;)

Wiley.

That would be a smart move.  :D.

Zack already made him an offer once.  ;)
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #92 on: November 29, 2019, 04:20:09 PM »
If I were HT I'd sell the FM for retirement money so I wouldn't have to deal with all of us.  But that's just me. ;)

Wiley.

Im not sure where Hitech is in his life. I know when I was middle aged, with a couple of young kids I would have been happy to "retire" and spend more time with them as they grow. Once they hit their teens, then maybe Id look for something to work on just to pass the time.

Maybe it would be good for him to bring in a team so he could step back and let the team continue with the game in what ever way makes sense.

I just wish that something was done to try and bring in, and more importantly KEEP new players. This game is so deep with things to do thatit really is a shame when you see people blow it off for any reason.

Offline Wiley

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #93 on: November 29, 2019, 04:34:20 PM »
I just wish that something was done to try and bring in, and more importantly KEEP new players. This game is so deep with things to do thatit really is a shame when you see people blow it off for any reason.

I just don't think there's anywhere to go with the game that would make it popular that wouldn't make it into something completely different.  If they make it like WT or the like, they may as well make it a dating simulator as far as I'm concerned.  Just not interested.

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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #94 on: November 29, 2019, 04:49:03 PM »
I just don't think there's anywhere to go with the game that would make it popular that wouldn't make it into something completely different.  If they make it like WT or the like, they may as well make it a dating simulator as far as I'm concerned.  Just not interested.

Wiley.

What would you consider "like WT" to be? What would change to make it like WT?

I think the game needs all of its basics...... tanking, fighters, bombers, ships, capture elements as well as the strat elements . All of these things are what makes AH stand out above all the other games. The only thing it is lacking is players, and I guess some may say graphics. If new players could see the depth of the game play could they ignore the graphics? I know I can but I have been here for years. If new players could what would be needed to entice them to stick it out long enough to see the depth of game play available?

I think free, or a cheaper version would help along those lines. A dedicated team to push the game on social media. As well as a dedicated team to ease the pain of learning all this game has to offer. I think these are the things that could help the game. 

Offline TheBug

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #95 on: November 29, 2019, 05:10:42 PM »
I think maybe being thankful for what there is and going with smaller maps to accommodate.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #96 on: November 29, 2019, 05:17:21 PM »
What would you consider "like WT" to be? What would change to make it like WT?

I think the game needs all of its basics...... tanking, fighters, bombers, ships, capture elements as well as the strat elements . All of these things are what makes AH stand out above all the other games. The only thing it is lacking is players, and I guess some may say graphics. If new players could see the depth of the game play could they ignore the graphics? I know I can but I have been here for years. If new players could what would be needed to entice them to stick it out long enough to see the depth of game play available?

I think free, or a cheaper version would help along those lines. A dedicated team to push the game on social media. As well as a dedicated team to ease the pain of learning all this game has to offer. I think these are the things that could help the game.

2 balanced sides with a short term goal, stuff to grind towards.  That's what's popular, large ongoing arena battles like what we have simply isn't.  You can make it free but it doesn't have those other skinner box elements that people look for.

Eye candy as well.  Most gamers, all they see is "this thing shiny, other thing less shiny."  The FM being different/better makes little to no difference to them.  Planes handle differently from each other over there, that's all they care about.

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Offline CptTrips

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #97 on: November 29, 2019, 05:39:51 PM »
I think maybe being thankful for what there is and going with smaller maps to accommodate.


There is a certain logic to that from a players point of view, however it doesn't help Hitech much who has to pay the bills with an ever shrinking revenue stream. 

If player counts were 180 last year and are 120 now, under 100 by this time next year?  Under 80?  Does Hitech live on air?  Is he getting a government subsidy?

Maybe if people want to keep the game a narrow boutique product with narrow appeal, they should be willing to pay boutique prices.  Maybe Hitech should raise it to $30 a month.   :t





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Offline Wiley

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #98 on: November 29, 2019, 05:50:45 PM »

There is a certain logic to that from a players point of view, however it doesn't help Hitech much who has to pay the bills with an ever shrinking revenue stream. 

If player counts were 180 last year and are 120 now, under 100 by this time next year?  Under 80?  Does Hitech live on air?  Is he getting a government subsidy?

Maybe if people want to keep the game a narrow boutique product with narrow appeal, they should be willing to pay boutique prices.  Maybe Hitech should raise it to $30 a month.   :t

Most nights I login other than Tuesday or Friday it's between 80 and a hundred and change now.

At least some of us are just barely hanging on by the skin of our teeth.  Other than events, if my squad's not on, I am finding it extremely difficult to find fun in the arena.  Squad night generally works out because when we get on the Pigs are being Pigs, but any other night I log on and there's just nothing in the air.  I realize you're being a bit facetious, but for the MA gameplay at the moment, I'd have to think a bit on dropping 30 on it vs 15.  Likely would just for FSO.  I've often said it'd be cheap at twice the price.  But I wouldn't pay that for the MA.

Wiley.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #99 on: November 29, 2019, 06:12:46 PM »
Most nights I login other than Tuesday or Friday it's between 80 and a hundred and change now.

At least some of us are just barely hanging on by the skin of our teeth.  Other than events, if my squad's not on, I am finding it extremely difficult to find fun in the arena.  Squad night generally works out because when we get on the Pigs are being Pigs, but any other night I log on and there's just nothing in the air.  I realize you're being a bit facetious, but for the MA gameplay at the moment, I'd have to think a bit on dropping 30 on it vs 15.  Likely would just for FSO.  I've often said it'd be cheap at twice the price.  But I wouldn't pay that for the MA.



Yet you don't think we are at the point it is worth risking change?  Even significant change?
You can't stand the Melee, but you don't want to see anything change?

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Yes.  I was half joking about the $30/month. 













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Offline Saxman

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #100 on: November 29, 2019, 06:38:35 PM »
What would you consider "like WT" to be? What would change to make it like WT?

I think the game needs all of its basics...... tanking, fighters, bombers, ships, capture elements as well as the strat elements . All of these things are what makes AH stand out above all the other games. The only thing it is lacking is players, and I guess some may say graphics. If new players could see the depth of the game play could they ignore the graphics? I know I can but I have been here for years. If new players could what would be needed to entice them to stick it out long enough to see the depth of game play available?

I think free, or a cheaper version would help along those lines. A dedicated team to push the game on social media. As well as a dedicated team to ease the pain of learning all this game has to offer. I think these are the things that could help the game.

Once again:

1) A new, modern graphics engine. Aces High is visibly dated, and there's only so far old engines can be pushed. Like it or not, most players DO put visuals on a high level these days. And it's not just younger generations, EVERY generation does this. The only games now that are getting away with 16-bit sprites or 90s/Aughts 3D model work are those deliberately aiming at the retro niche. However that niche is virtually non-existent when it comes to simulators. There's absolutely NO way going forward that AH is going to last for long unless a major change is made here. you can argue about it until you're blue in the face about HTC's development model, or small studios this or that. THIS IS REALITY. All aircraft need to be brought up to at least the standards of the Wildcats, and the terrain, materials, and environment systems need a thorough upgrade.

2) Enhance the damage model. Engines that degrade with damage. Pull too many Gs when your spar is full of holes and your ping pops up. Degrading flight and control surfaces. Guns can jam. Put stuff IN the plane like control lines that can be severed. Damage should not be all-or-nothing.

Which ties into...

3) Double down on the simulator aspects. This is the main thing setting AH's gameplay apart from WT. WT is an arcadey shooter with some simulator elements. Maybe AH shouldn't be a DCS-level study sim, where you have to warm your engine for 10 minutes before takeoff and manually switch on your guns, but there should be more things to manage. Bring on complex engine management (oil, radiator, and cowl flaps, mixture control, prop pitch that actually has to be set for the correct power settings etc.). Model the aircraft's unique systems (IE the 190s and their automatic propeller pitch). Implement a "Newbie Switch" where CEM can be disabled, but at a potential loss of performance.

4) Introduce more ordinance options (Tiny Tim rockets have been asked for quite frequently). Introduce more ammunition options than simply averaging your belt, and tie ammunition into the Strat system: Maybe you like to run API-API-API-API-T in your Browning M2. But oops, the ammo bunker at your field was just exploded, so it's all Ball rounds for you.

5) Add more aircraft. I'll give you several easy ones that wouldn't even require much (if anything) in the way of new meshes: FG-1/A/D (denavalized; unavailable from carriers). F4F-3 (a 4-gun F4F is NOT an F4F-4. the -3 was lighter, longer-ranged, and better performing). F6F-3. F2A-3, and B-339 and it's British and Dutch subvariants (The 239 has noticeably different handling from either, though IIRC the Dutch model was close). Here's a big one that WT doesn't (AFAIK) have: Bring on in-craft radar, and introduce proper night fighters. F4U-2 and F6F-5N (an F6F with a pair of 20mms is sure to get love) are two easy ones to add simply by remodeling a wing. The P-61 has been quite frequently asked for, but always shot down on the Wishlist because "We don't have night so why bother with it?). How many people have asked for the P-51A or A-36?

There's no need to change the core persistent arena-based game play to TOO large of an extent (I do agree with removing the third country, tho). However I'd introduce more ways to manage territory than simply "Flatten town and drop troops." And there's no need to create a "Freeloaders vs. Premiums" caste system. At all.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #101 on: November 29, 2019, 07:39:56 PM »
Once again:

1) A new, modern graphics engine.

Oh, a new graphics engine.  Hitech!  Get right on that, OK?  :D

I hear you.  I don't totally disagree.  However, I think the engine is more capable than it looks.  A lot of the issue is models not the underlying engine.  And the generic component nature of a simplistic rather than trying to model a particular location.  The terrain mesh resolution is a little course.  It be nice to have adaptive mesh system where certain areas of interest could have high detain and in-between areas with much lower poly count


The real problem is that ideally Hitech wouldn't be in the engine business.  He had to create one when he started because there weren't really and available ones then.  Game companies now have off the shelf they can leverage built by teams 100 graphic engineers that can afford to concentrate on engine design day and day, year after year exclusively.  It is impossible for Hitech to keep up with that rolling his own.  It's a massive amount of work and no one can be an expert in everything.

Of course it is easier for a new company starting an new product to do that.  Very hard for an existing company with 18 years of legacy code to switch over.

The other problem with a proprietary engine is that is makes it almost impossible to bring in hired-guns temporarily  to help with a development push for 6-12 months. You can't just drop in an Unreal or Unity Ninja and get them up to speed quickly on your engine. 

That is not a mistake on Hitech's part, just the way things worked out.  It is very hard for long existing companies to  swap out technologies. Newer companies often have that clean-slate advantage.  Kinda like how Germany and Japan had the advantage of starting out with brand new modern factories after WWII while alot of ours were from the turn of the century.

2) Enhance the damage model. Engines that degrade with damage. Pull too many Gs when your spar is full of holes and your ping pops up. Degrading flight and control surfaces. Guns can jam. Put stuff IN the plane like control lines that can be severed. Damage should not be all-or-nothing.

That is more reasonable, but I doubt it is a huge game changer.  But it is certain more realistic than an entirely new graphics engine.  ;)


3) Double down on the simulator aspects. This is the main thing setting AH's gameplay apart from WT. WT is an arcadey shooter with some simulator elements. Maybe AH shouldn't be a DCS-level study sim, where you have to warm your engine for 10 minutes before takeoff and manually switch on your guns, but there should be more things to manage. Bring on complex engine management (oil, radiator, and cowl flaps, mixture control, prop pitch that actually has to be set for the correct power settings etc.). Model the aircraft's unique systems (IE the 190s and their automatic propeller pitch). Implement a "Newbie Switch" where CEM can be disabled, but at a potential loss of performance.

Sid Meier had a great quote about his design principal to make his sims fun, as opposed to a military or commercial simulator, (paraphrased) "Simulate the fun stuff and throw everything else out." 

I don't want to be a flight sim accountant.  That is not the "fun stuff" to me.  If he wants to put it in for people who get off to that, fine.  But it should confer no advantage.  Diddle you cowling flaps to your hearts content.


4) Introduce more ordinance options (Tiny Tim rockets have been asked for quite frequently). Introduce more ammunition options than simply averaging your belt, and tie ammunition into the Strat system: Maybe you like to run API-API-API-API-T in your Browning M2. But oops, the ammo bunker at your field was just exploded, so it's all Ball rounds for you.

Meh.  I'm not against it, but it probably ranks low on the estimated bang for the buck. (Pardon the Pun).

5) Add more aircraft. I'll give you several easy ones that wouldn't even require much (if anything) in the way of new meshes: FG-1/A/D (denavalized; unavailable from carriers). F4F-3 (a 4-gun F4F is NOT an F4F-4. the -3 was lighter, longer-ranged, and better performing). F6F-3. F2A-3, and B-339 and it's British and Dutch subvariants (The 239 has noticeably different handling from either, though IIRC the Dutch model was close). Here's a big one that WT doesn't (AFAIK) have: Bring on in-craft radar, and introduce proper night fighters. F4U-2 and F6F-5N (an F6F with a pair of 20mms is sure to get love) are two easy ones to add simply by remodeling a wing. The P-61 has been quite frequently asked for, but always shot down on the Wishlist because "We don't have night so why bother with it?). How many people have asked for the P-51A or A-36?

Meh.  We have a lot of planes.  Most of them are never flown already.  Do you really think adding a couple more variants is going to make a material difference at this point?


There's no need to change the core persistent arena-based game play to TOO large of an extent (I do agree with removing the third country, tho).

Ohhhhh, no you didn't!!!!!!!   You just stepped on the third rail!   :rofl 

I think 3-side worked great with 300-600 players.  I'll leave it at that.  :bolt:


However I'd introduce more ways to manage territory than simply "Flatten town and drop troops." And there's no need to create a "Freeloaders vs. Premiums" caste system. At all.

But you want to create an engine management caste system?   

:cheers:



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Offline guncrasher

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #102 on: November 29, 2019, 08:18:14 PM »
Think hitec should make the game free.  Then sell all the hacks the people claim others use for a premium. He would more than double his income.  OK jk

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Offline Saxman

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #103 on: November 29, 2019, 08:25:33 PM »
Oh, a new graphics engine.  Hitech!  Get right on that, OK?  :D

I hear you.  I don't totally disagree.  However, I think the engine is more capable than it looks.  A lot of the issue is models not the underlying engine.  And the generic component nature of a simplistic rather than trying to model a particular location.  The terrain mesh resolution is a little course.  It be nice to have adaptive mesh system where certain areas of interest could have high detain and in-between areas with much lower poly count
(Image removed from quote.)

The real problem is that ideally Hitech wouldn't be in the engine business.  He had to create one when he started because there weren't really and available ones then.  Game companies now have off the shelf they can leverage built by teams 100 graphic engineers that can afford to concentrate on engine design day and day, year after year exclusively.  It is impossible for Hitech to keep up with that rolling his own.  It's a massive amount of work and no one can be an expert in everything.

Of course it is easier for a new company starting an new product to do that.  Very hard for an existing company with 18 years of legacy code to switch over.

The other problem with a proprietary engine is that is makes it almost impossible to bring in hired-guns temporarily  to help with a development push for 6-12 months. You can't just drop in an Unreal or Unity Ninja and get them up to speed quickly on your engine. 

That is not a mistake on Hitech's part, just the way things worked out.  It is very hard for long existing companies to  swap out technologies. Newer companies often have that clean-slate advantage.  Kinda like how Germany and Japan had the advantage of starting out with brand new modern factories after WWII while alot of ours were from the turn of the century.

That is more reasonable, but I doubt it is a huge game changer.  But it is certain more realistic than an entirely new graphics engine.  ;)


Sid Meier had a great quote about his design principal to make his sims fun, as opposed to a military or commercial simulator, (paraphrased) "Simulate the fun stuff and throw everything else out." 

I don't want to be a flight sim accountant.  That is not the "fun stuff" to me.  If he wants to put it in for people who get off to that, fine.  But it should confer no advantage.  Diddle you cowling flaps to your hearts content.


Meh.  I'm not against it, but it probably ranks low on the estimated bang for the buck. (Pardon the Pun).

Meh.  We have a lot of planes.  Most of them are never flown already.  Do you really think adding a couple more variants is going to make a material difference at this point?


Ohhhhh, no you didn't!!!!!!!   You just stepped on the third rail!   :rofl 

I think 3-side worked great with 300-600 players.  I'll leave it at that.  :bolt:


But you want to create an engine management caste system?   

:cheers:





There's an awful lot of straw in this argument.

Quote
Implement a "Newbie Switch" where CEM can be disabled, but at a potential loss of performance.

We already have this with the Engine Governor, Stall Limiter, and Combat Trim. Players who make use of these DO pay a price for making use of them. It makes it easier to fly, but turning on the former two limit the ability to push the aircraft, and manual trim has its own advantages for fine tuning the aircraft's handling (Drop your flaps with CT on vs. off at a high AoA. Go on, I'll wait).

The advantages for manual engine management would be much the same. Maybe you gain a few feet per minute on your rate of climb by adjusting your propeller pitch, or pick up a few extra mph by closing up your cowl flaps. But this comes at the risk of your engine overheating and seizing.

And there's nothing that says that HTC needs to develop the graphics engine in-house. As you yourself pointed out, there's plenty of off-the-shelf engines out there, so finding one that could work with the flight and physics engine would be a legitimate alternative.
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: The future of Aces High is on Facebook
« Reply #104 on: November 29, 2019, 08:40:55 PM »
Once again:

1) A new, modern graphics engine. Aces High is visibly dated, and there's only so far old engines can be pushed. Like it or not, most players DO put visuals on a high level these days. And it's not just younger generations, EVERY generation does this. The only games now that are getting away with 16-bit sprites or 90s/Aughts 3D model work are those deliberately aiming at the retro niche. However that niche is virtually non-existent when it comes to simulators. There's absolutely NO way going forward that AH is going to last for long unless a major change is made here. you can argue about it until you're blue in the face about HTC's development model, or small studios this or that. THIS IS REALITY. All aircraft need to be brought up to at least the standards of the Wildcats, and the terrain, materials, and environment systems need a thorough upgrade.

2) Enhance the damage model. Engines that degrade with damage. Pull too many Gs when your spar is full of holes and your ping pops up. Degrading flight and control surfaces. Guns can jam. Put stuff IN the plane like control lines that can be severed. Damage should not be all-or-nothing.

Which ties into...

3) Double down on the simulator aspects. This is the main thing setting AH's gameplay apart from WT. WT is an arcadey shooter with some simulator elements. Maybe AH shouldn't be a DCS-level study sim, where you have to warm your engine for 10 minutes before takeoff and manually switch on your guns, but there should be more things to manage. Bring on complex engine management (oil, radiator, and cowl flaps, mixture control, prop pitch that actually has to be set for the correct power settings etc.). Model the aircraft's unique systems (IE the 190s and their automatic propeller pitch). Implement a "Newbie Switch" where CEM can be disabled, but at a potential loss of performance.

4) Introduce more ordinance options (Tiny Tim rockets have been asked for quite frequently). Introduce more ammunition options than simply averaging your belt, and tie ammunition into the Strat system: Maybe you like to run API-API-API-API-T in your Browning M2. But oops, the ammo bunker at your field was just exploded, so it's all Ball rounds for you.

5) Add more aircraft. I'll give you several easy ones that wouldn't even require much (if anything) in the way of new meshes: FG-1/A/D (denavalized; unavailable from carriers). F4F-3 (a 4-gun F4F is NOT an F4F-4. the -3 was lighter, longer-ranged, and better performing). F6F-3. F2A-3, and B-339 and it's British and Dutch subvariants (The 239 has noticeably different handling from either, though IIRC the Dutch model was close). Here's a big one that WT doesn't (AFAIK) have: Bring on in-craft radar, and introduce proper night fighters. F4U-2 and F6F-5N (an F6F with a pair of 20mms is sure to get love) are two easy ones to add simply by remodeling a wing. The P-61 has been quite frequently asked for, but always shot down on the Wishlist because "We don't have night so why bother with it?). How many people have asked for the P-51A or A-36?

There's no need to change the core persistent arena-based game play to TOO large of an extent (I do agree with removing the third country, tho). However I'd introduce more ways to manage territory than simply "Flatten town and drop troops." And there's no need to create a "Freeloaders vs. Premiums" caste system. At all.

I agree with everything CptTrips said, for HTC to doe this with just Hitech as the caoder, and one art guy it would take YEARS!

Buying new graphic is an option, first there is the money to buy a new engine. Then you have to integrate it to the coad they have now, again with one guy writing the coad it will still take YEARS.

And while all of this would be "cool" it really isnt going to bring in new players..... well "pretty" graphics may help, but again we wont see any of this any time soon.

I dont want to see a 2 sided war, I dont want to see "round base play", I dont want to see "air spawns", I dont want to see "grinding" added to the game. I want the game the way it is with all the depth and options it has, but Id like to see something done to help retain players. I think the "free" play option with a limited plane set could help bring up the numbers.

I also wish there was a way for the "steam" client could work better with the HTC client. If steam displayed the numbers IN the arena instead of the numbers of players playing THROUGH steam in the arena it could help get more players in too. Steam players look and see 12 players playing and say "Forget that, what else can I play" and they are gone.