Author Topic: P-38 Techniques  (Read 5319 times)

Offline Badboy

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2020, 03:27:32 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

If I may respectfully interject, and this could just be semantics, But I think maybe Badboy is referring to performing a steep low yo-yo.

Hi Owlblink

Yes, a low yo-yo may have been a better description. To me, both terms seemed lacking. I was torn between the two because I've found the low yo-yo to be more effective in aces high when they are done fairly shallow and repeatedly. Several small ones are often better than one big one. However, what works better in the situation I've described is a very steep low yo-yo, so steep that I think it has more similarity to a split S. I've shown this in the diagram below:



The key thing is that everyone knows what flight path was intended and it may have been better to have described it without the use of either terms. I could describe it like this: Imagine the spitfire and P38 flying around the rim of a mixing bowl in a level turn. The low yo-yo would be any path below the rim, while the path required passes through the bottom of the bowl. So I think that the split S description helps achieve that understanding.     

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I only mention this because what the drawing depicts (to me) is more accurately described as a low yo-yo but I am willing to stand corrected.

I don't think it really matters, the diagrams get the idea across. It isn't a precise thing, because in reality both aircraft may already be turning nose low and the fight is often spiraling downwards. It's just that normally, the P-38 needs to spiral more steeply, and if many other aircraft try to match that, they gain speed, their turn circle widens and they help the P-38 turn inside. So good opponents will often attempt to spiral less steeply or transition to a climbing spiral... It is further complicated by the opponent's intention to either energy or angles fight. This is also influenced because the P-38 has better turn radius than turn rate performance and often finds itself against aircraft with a better rate but worse radius performance. That means the P38 pilots almost always prefer one circle geometry over two circle, and the techniques I've described work well when the P-38 finds itself getting stuck in a two circle fight against someone who knows how to energy fight.

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As pointed out by (I believe) FLS, you are actually not going to get better sustained turn or turn radius with more than 3 flaps, you will observe what feels like an initial increase in turn rate but the drag will hurt you very quickly. If you are level, the extra flaps may help you float a tittle (similar to how an F4U flaps work). I do not have the data points to process this into a graph and both I and FLS may stand to be corrected but either way play around with the flaps and judge for yourself.

I took another look and found a more recent diagram with all the flap positions shown.



You can see from this diagram that the best combination of radius and rate in a level turn is at 4 notches. The catch with that diagram is that it shows the turn rate in a sustained level turn. In combat that rarely happens unless both pilots are fairly evenly matched and the fight has ended up on the deck. 

When I made the radius diagram above I also posted an Energy Maneuverability diagram (doghouse plot) for the P-38 as shown below but it only shows the first 3 notches of flaps along with a clean configuration. Anyone with that diagram in their possession could be forgiven for thinking that 3 notches were the optimal setting.



I would have omitted the 4th and 5th notches from the diagram when I posted it because it wasn't relevant in the discussion where it was originally used. That would have been because flying at 3 notches of flaps has another advantage over 4 notches during combat that is unrelated to rate and radius considerations. I wonder if anyone can say what that is?

What is most interesting from the EM diagram above is that if you look at the left hand curve for 3 notches (shown in grey) you can see that in a nose low turn, if you execute a roll into the split S or steep low yo-yo the true air speed may increase to 225mph or more giving a temporary turn rate boost to over 30dps and well above what the Spit will be achieving in its sustained climbing turn.

No wonder so many unsuspecting spitfire pilots can be surprised and amazed by a good P-38 pilot using the technique I've described.

Hope that helps

Badboy
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 03:34:36 PM by Badboy »
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Offline FLS

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2020, 04:07:59 PM »
Nice post Badboy. I was probably misremembering and confused the P-38 with the Corsair flaps.

I'm curious which flap position is modeled as the 50% extension maneuver flap position?

Offline Drano

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2020, 05:00:34 PM »
Yeah the last couple notches of flap in the 38s are purely to keep you from literally falling out of the sky! It will help you in that regard by at that point you need to get back to a speed range where it's 3 notches max if you're fighting/maneuvering.

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Offline Owlblink

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2020, 06:51:47 PM »
I appreciate the clarification, badboy!
I will have to play around with the flaps a bit more then, myself and see what works in the different situation.

Would you consider 3 flaps to maybe have been an observation for more nose high maneuvers where you may need some flaps but not as much drag as with 4?
Curious to see what your insight behind your wondering question might be.
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Offline Badboy

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2020, 05:37:18 PM »
I'm curious which flap position is modeled as the 50% extension maneuver flap position?

I'm not sure, but I think the 3rd notch is close enough  :)

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Offline Badboy

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2020, 05:43:42 PM »
Yeah the last couple notches of flap in the 38s are purely to keep you from literally falling out of the sky! It will help you in that regard by at that point you need to get back to a speed range where it's 3 notches max if you're fighting/maneuvering.

Good point Drano

It is a common theme across a wide range of aircraft that using flaps can improve turning performance up to a point, but using them beyond the point of optimal aerodynamic efficiency is like digging yourself into an energy hole that you can't get out of. In the P-38 staying at 3 notches of flaps or less, keeps more options open longer.

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Offline Badboy

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2020, 06:44:34 PM »
Would you consider 3 flaps to maybe have been an observation for more nose high maneuvers where you may need some flaps but not as much drag as with 4?
Curious to see what your insight behind your wondering question might be.

The key thing about the P-38 is that it can achieve a tight turn radius, but not such a good turn rate, relatively speaking. Fighter pilots have a saying "Rate Kills" which essentially means that even if you have a tighter turn radius, an aircraft that can out turn you, can still kill you. At first that isn't obvious, because you might think that one of two options are possible:
  • That the tighter turning aircraft could simply stay inside the other aircraft's turn circle and the aircraft with the with the better rate would still not be able to get a shot.
  • That the tighter turning aircraft could simply turn one circle and win a scissors type engagement
However in the first situation the pilot with the better turn rate can change the geometry of the fight to create turning room for the shot by off-setting the turn circles and that can be achieved by turning out of plane with a high yo-yo for example.

However if an opponent attempts to create turning room or off-set the turn circles by going out of plane with a high yo-yo, the best defense is to duplicate the maneuver with one of your own, taking away the turning room and resetting the geometry of the fight and thus staying inside his turn. The catch is, you can't do that if you have given your opponent exclusive use of the vertical by digging yourself into an energy hole. Giving away ownership of the vertical can be a decisive mistake.

For example, let's say two equally skillful pilots, both in P-38s have spiraled all the way down to the deck and are locked in a neutral lufbery. The only difference being that one pilot stays at three notches of flaps and the other drops full flaps. As the full flap pilot deploys his flaps he will see what looks like an advantage, it will appear as though he's gaining as the circle tightens. However he's just given up a huge chunk of energy and his opponent will be able to dominate the vertical. I've seen pilot's who don't understand what that means, try to match their opponent in the vertical and then realize as they come over the top that they don't have enough energy left to pull out and end the fight in a smoking hole.

In the second situation, it often takes two to tango, when faced with a tighter turning aircraft it is almost always possible to force the fight two circle for a rate war rather than a one circle radius war. There are situations where it isn't possible to avoid conceding at least one opportunity to a tighter turner aircraft hell bent on going one circle and those situations are the P-38 pilot's stock in trade, its what they work for and how they make their living. But when you know the dangers, accept for the occasional unpleasant surprise, you can avoid them.   

Regarding the last two notches of flaps, P-38 v P-38 I will often go to four notches, but because of the very small rate advantage it often results in a very protracted engagement. I prefer the "slow but sure" approach but many players hate it because in the MA there is rarely time and that approach is more likely to get you picked. Even with no other aircraft around it can become more a test of endurance than anything else. For most players and against almost any other aircraft the difference between the third and fourth notch won't matter much, but there is another factor.

With most aircraft, working the flaps requires two things, firstly the knowledge of which settings are optimal in any particular situation and then some spare brain cells to monitor exactly where your flaps are at any given moment, complicated by the flaps auto retracting if your airspeed increases. Often in an intense engagement where you are focused on maneuvering and possibly trying to monitor other bandits, it is easy to lose track. The nice thing about being at three notches of flaps in a hard low speed maneuvering engagement in the P-38 is that they will just stay there. You can get to three notches and then pretty much forget about them for a while, freeing your entire concentration for the ACM.

So, a good strategy is to use three notches, reserving the fourth notch for momentary assistance over the top in loops or during a rolling scissors. If you finally end up on the deck against another P-38, the fourth notch can be used if needed as it will slightly improve both your rate and radius and can be particular decisive if you are stuck in lag with just a few more degrees to go for the kill. Lastly, the 5th and final notch will almost always hurt so should only be used in situations where the tighter radius will either result in a high probability of kill, or enable you to avoid conceding one, and then only as briefly as necessary.

Hope that helps.

Badboy   


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Offline Owlblink

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2020, 06:13:06 PM »
Thank you Badboy  :cheers:

That was all very useful information and over all well written.

If you are ever up to it and available to fly, I’d enjoy doing some p38 tests with you.

I’ve used the two circle fight a few times in the WWI arena when in a D7 against the Dr.I
and I am not able to right away start low/Hi yo-yos to get energy and cut across their turn radius.
       If I understand correctly from recalling some old diagrams (likely by you), a two circle example - for simplicity - occurs when one plane is turning left and you turn right, so when viewed from the “top” your flight paths are creating somewhat of a figure 8 vs an oblique 0
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Offline Badboy

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2020, 12:35:52 PM »
If I understand correctly from recalling some old diagrams (likely by you), a two circle example - for simplicity - occurs when one plane is turning left and you turn right, so when viewed from the “top” your flight paths are creating somewhat of a figure 8 vs an oblique 0

Hi Owlblink

Well, you can't beat a diagram for clarity, so try these:





and just to clarify the turn directions I did this one some time ago:



Wow, was it really that long ago  :eek:

Revisiting some of my old diagrams has made me realize how long I've been doing this. I Just did the math, seems I started flying AW in 1990 and to me Aces High feels like exactly the same game, so I've been doing this for 30 years. The good part is, when I fly, I don't feel any older ;)

Anyway, hope that helps.

Badboy
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Offline Owlblink

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2020, 06:50:21 PM »
I appreciate the diagrams badboy, but the explanation for the two circle one still has some confusing wording that requires clarification.
Two circle says “turn into eachother,” in my mind that is the same as turning nose to nose.
In a merge, if I go lower or slightly off the side of an oncoming aircraft and use an oblique turn or an immelmann to get “behind” him for a crossing shot, and he does the same, are we not turning into eachother?
Maybe it would be better to discribe it on terms of which way our lift vectors are pointing.
The two circle looks like both planes are turning “away” from eachother’s lift vectors. 
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Offline FLS

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2020, 07:25:19 PM »
When both pilots turn the same relative direction in a head on merge, for example both make right turns, it's a two circle fight. A two circle fight favors turn rate.

If the pilots turn opposite directions, one goes left and the other goes right, then it's a one circle fight. A one circle fight favors radius.


Offline Badboy

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2020, 07:38:35 AM »
Maybe it would be better to discribe it on terms of which way our lift vectors are pointing.

Ok, I have a lift vector explanation for you.

Just to clarify though in a turn, the lift vector is always pointing towards the center of your turn circle.
When I refer to a direction, I'm doing so in terms of compass heading for horizontal turns or just up and down for vertical turns.

  • At the merge if both aircraft turn so that their lift vectors are pointing in the same direction, that's a one circle fight.
  • At the merge if both aircraft turn so that their lift vectors are pointing in opposite directions, that's a two circle fight.

With that in mind we can revisit the diagrams. In those diagrams we can say that the top of each one is North. Then using the lift vector terminology we would reason like this:

For the one circle diagram we see that at the merge both aircraft have their lift vectors pointing West. They are pointing in the same direction, so it is a one circle fight.

For the two circle diagram we see that at the merge Blue pilot's lift vector is pointing East, while Red pilot's lift vector is pointing West. They are pointing in opposite directions so it is a two circle fight. 

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In a merge, if I go lower or slightly off the side of an oncoming aircraft and use an oblique turn or an immelmann to get “behind” him for a crossing shot, and he does the same, are we not turning into eachother?

In the case of each pilot doing an Immelmann both pilots will have their lift vectors pointing up. Both lift vectors are pointing in the same direction and so it is a one circle fight.

Quote
The two circle looks like both planes are turning “away” from each other’s lift vectors.

At the merge they roll into each and are each pointing their lift vector at the other. Their lift vectors are therefore pointing in opposite directions and thus a two circle fight.

Just reviewing my previous explanations and the one provided by FLS and they all appear consistent and correct.

However, I write fairly quickly and there is plenty of room for confusion, if your not getting it, it's my fault entirely. If you still don't see it, just keep asking and I'm sure we will get there, it's certainly worth the effort.

My experience is that we all sometimes need to see things explained in different ways before one of them causes the penny to drop.

Kind regards

Badboy
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Offline Puma44

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2020, 08:16:16 AM »
Badboy, excellent diagrams and explanations.  :aok  Also, use of the term “lift vector” which is vital to understand in BFM/ACM discussion and teaching.  Well done, my friend!  :salute



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Offline Badboy

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2020, 11:36:04 AM »
Badboy, excellent diagrams and explanations.  :aok  Also, use of the term “lift vector” which is vital to understand in BFM/ACM discussion and teaching.  Well done, my friend!  :salute

Thanks Puma44!

Always nice to get confirmation from someone who's been there and done it.

Also, the time you spent schooling me in section tactics has been greatly appreciated.

Let's wing together again soon.

Kind regards

Badboy
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Offline Puma44

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2020, 03:38:12 PM »
Thanks Puma44!

Always nice to get confirmation from someone who's been there and done it.

Also, the time you spent schooling me in section tactics has been greatly appreciated.

Let's wing together again soon.

Kind regards

Badboy


You’re quite welcome!  Anytime you’re ready, my friend!

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